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FOH Tech re-wired my rig?

emart

emart

Sep 2, 2009
395
242
SF Bay Area
#1
This is NOT a thread to bash the sound guy, just trying to understand if there is more than a single reason for the sound engineer re-wiring my setup. I wouldn't have cared except that what he did resulted in me losing my ability to mute my rig during the performance, so I couldn't check tuning or swap basses. It was only one set with only one change so I didn't object, and in fairness he said if I wanted to change back he would do it whatever way I wanted.

Background: Fairly large venue with full FOH support and crew, all nice and competent people. My rig was wired like this:

Wireless->GKMB800->(effect send)rack tuner->rack compressor->RBI->(effect return)amp

I realize that this doesn't result in optimum tone but for live application it suits my needs well. I use the mute function with a footswitch from the Korg DTR2000 tuner to mute for tuning and changes without having to go back to my rig on a large stage. I don't care for pedalboards.

The FOH engineer mic'd the cab then took a feed directly from my wireless into a splitter, then sent the direct feed from the wireless to FOH, and sent a second feed back into my rig. He explained that having two signals going to his board was insurance in the event my rig failed. Fair enough, but I lost my ability to mute/tune/swap basses. In truth, I have no idea what it sounded like in the house because I didn't go out front during sound check. In bigger venues with full FOH support I expect to lose control over my tone so I wasn't really tripping about that.

I'm looking for comments about whether this is a common thing in bigger venues, and whether I should create a work-around for these gigs or just have him use my DI or the mic for a single feed to FOH. Hate to go against the house sound engineer...

Thanks.
 
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#2
It's not uncommon for techs to want the upstream DI. Many will want to remove elements of a "complex" bass rig from the DI feed. Each extra piece of hardware and cabling in your rig registers for FOH engineers as a potentially ill-maintained point of failure. And each knob in your rig represents an increased chance that your gain structure and tone might change mid-performance in ways that don't suit the FOH mix.

That's one of the reasons I favor pedal tuners for stage use. In your circumstances, I'd have gone wireless receiver-->pedal tuner (w/mute)-->DI-->stage rig.
 
#3
emart said:
This is NOT a thread to bash the sound guy, just trying to understand if there is more than a single reason for the sound engineer re-wiring my setup. I wouldn't have cared except that what he did resulted in me losing my ability to mute my rig during the performance, so I couldn't check tuning or swap basses. It was only one set with only one change so I didn't object, and in fairness he said if I wanted to change back he would do it whatever way I wanted.

Background: Fairly large venue with full FOH support and crew, all nice and competent people. My rig was wired like this:

Wireless->GKMB800->(effect send)rack tuner->rack compressor->RBI->(effect return)amp

I realize that this doesn't result in optimum tone but for live application it suits my needs well. I use the mute function with a footswitch from the Korg DTR1000 tuner to mute for tuning and changes without having to go back to my rig on a large stage. I don't care for pedalboards.

The FOH engineer mic'd the cab then took a feed directly from my wireless into a splitter, then sent the direct feed from the wireless to FOH, and sent a second feed back into my rig. He explained that having two signals going to his board was insurance in the event my rig failed. Fair enough, but I lost my ability to mute/tune/swap basses. In truth, I have no idea what it sounded like in the house because I didn't go out front during sound check. In bigger venues with full FOH support I expect to lose control over my tone so I wasn't really tripping about that.

I'm looking for comments about whether this is a common thing in bigger venues, and whether I should create a work-around for these gigs or just have him use my DI or the mic for a single feed to FOH. Hate to go against the house sound engineer...

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I guess I don't understand why he wouldn't just put a DI between your receiver and your amp, run the 1/4" output from the DI to your amp, and take the balanced signal from the DI to the FOH along with the mic feed, thereby getting both signals he wanted without disrupting your setup. Am I missing something?
 
#6
Being a sound guy, I have mixed feelings about tampering with anyone's setup unless I'm asked to look into it for some reason.

You lost the ability to mute your basses because of the sound guy's re-wiring, but hey, it you bang his rig because you can't mute your rig, then it's his problem.

I always have my own DI (A Radial JDI, soon to be replaced with a REDDI) right after my wireless receiver and tuner pedal so I can mute and change basses. and I explain what I'm doing and why to the stage tech. I haven't met a soundguy yet that won't use my DI instead of the company's.

And thanx for the "not bashing the sound guy" sentiment even though some them earn it. (sorry if that steps over the line. I don't doubt I've been "that guy" on an occasion or two...:D)
 
#8
1 word ... Bassbone. Might not be as sexy as a red... But switching, gain balancing and the minimal EQ are really effective on stage. Along with the mute function which also mutes the DI... When I'm bass guy, not sound man - no sound guy has ever complained about me bringing my radial to the party...
 
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#10
Which wireless system are you using? I'm using the Line 6 G50 which has a mute function on the transmitter pack. It also appears that the Korg rackmount tuner accepts instrument-level signal...this is a good thing. If your situation is an ongoing issue, try this provided your signal chain / options will accommodate:

*Remove the Korg tuner from the FX loop.

*Your wireless receiver may have a "Tuner Send" which remains active even when the mute mode is engaged.

*Run a common instrument cable from the wireless receiver's "Tuner Send" to the instrument input on the Korg tuner.

When muted, your can swap instruments and silently tune via the Korg without sending signal to FOH.

Riis
 
#11
emart said:
This is NOT a thread to bash the sound guy, just trying to understand if there is more than a single reason for the sound engineer re-wiring my setup. I wouldn't have cared except that what he did resulted in me losing my ability to mute my rig during the performance, so I couldn't check tuning or swap basses. It was only one set with only one change so I didn't object, and in fairness he said if I wanted to change back he would do it whatever way I wanted.

Background: Fairly large venue with full FOH support and crew, all nice and competent people. My rig was wired like this:

Wireless->GKMB800->(effect send)rack tuner->rack compressor->RBI->(effect return)amp

I realize that this doesn't result in optimum tone but for live application it suits my needs well. I use the mute function with a footswitch from the Korg DTR2000 tuner to mute for tuning and changes without having to go back to my rig on a large stage. I don't care for pedalboards.

The FOH engineer mic'd the cab then took a feed directly from my wireless into a splitter, then sent the direct feed from the wireless to FOH, and sent a second feed back into my rig. He explained that having two signals going to his board was insurance in the event my rig failed. Fair enough, but I lost my ability to mute/tune/swap basses. In truth, I have no idea what it sounded like in the house because I didn't go out front during sound check. In bigger venues with full FOH support I expect to lose control over my tone so I wasn't really tripping about that.

I'm looking for comments about whether this is a common thing in bigger venues, and whether I should create a work-around for these gigs or just have him use my DI or the mic for a single feed to FOH. Hate to go against the house sound engineer...

Thanks.
Click to expand...
That's why my tuner is a pedal that comes before EVERYTHING in my chain (other than my bass). The tech can do whatever he wants with my rig, as long as it comes after the tuner. I've found that most techs don't even bother with micing my cab. They'll take a DI after my effects and before my pre-amp.
 
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#12
My combo amp has a direct out, switchable pre-post EQ, so it's XLR out to FOH/snake.
I have a Korg Pitchblack tuner right after my G90 and before the amp.. so I can mute, switch basses, etc.
House takes the DI.. never had my amp mic'ed.

And since we're all IEM, the stage volume of the amp is not relevant.
 
#13
Years ago, before DI's were common on bass amps, FOH guys would routinely have me plug into a splitter/DI before my amp in order to get a clean, unprocessed signal. But I wasn't switching basses or changing tunings during the show. Sounds like the FOH guy might have been trying to solve a problem he didn't have, or at best was an edge case. (Or perhaps he really wanted a pre-EQ single and didn't know that the DI on the MB800 is pre/post EQ switchable.) FOH guys these days are delighted to take a pre-EQ signal directly from my MB800. Less work for them than rigging their own DI. For my money, your wireless was more likely to fail during the gig than your GK MB800 was. I use a Peterson Strobostomp, which has a decent DI on it that will mute for tuning.

-Alan
 
#15
I like when they take direct and mic'd, lots of security for both of you. If your rig bugs out you can kill it and still play, and if he loses your direct he has another option or your rig can be turned up. Sometimes they blend em too. My multi-bass direct/mic rig usually goes basses->Morley ABC (multi input switcher)->tuner->tube pre/OD->compressor ->sansamp bddi->amp and foh->cabs->mics.
Keeps it nice and simple in a complicated sort of way ;)
 
#16
Thanks for all the comments. I can see why the sound tech. did what he did, and in the future I'll try to accommodate him because I think he's trying to do the right thing. In a normal 2-3 set gig I have 3 basses in use; a standard tuned 4-string, BEAD 4-string, and 4-string tuned down to Eb. I'm trying to have only one gig rig that works for all situations, which may not be possible.

jimfist said:
how does he mute for tuning without sending the direct feed to FOH, since the sound guy took signal before the OP's designated mute switch? This is the problem, yes?
Click to expand...

Correct, this is what happened.

DWBass said:
This right here!! Trying to figure out how you would not be able to mute from your wireless transmitter?!?!
Click to expand...

I use a G50 wireless system. My transmitter is either affixed on my belt or tucked in my back pocket, and fumbling with the mute on the transmitter is not an option for me, too much opportunity for error, particularly if the stage goes dark between songs. IMO the wireless is the weakest point in the entire rig, as far as potential user failure is concerned. That is, next to the flimsy and too-easily moved gain and volume knobs on the MB800...

4Mal said:
1 word ... Bassbone. Might not be as sexy as a red... But switching, gain balancing and the minimal EQ are really effective on stage. Along with the mute function which also mutes the DI... When I'm bass guy, not sound man - no sound guy has ever complained about me bringing my radial to the party...
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be a good option if I wanted to go back to a pedal system, as would the pitchblack (have one), but I really want to stay away from the pedal system.

It seems simple to just change the placement of the tuner for this venue, running the wireless into the tuner and giving the house the signal post-tuner, but before the main rig. I'd just remove the tuner from the FX loop.
 
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#18
Firstly, always have your own DI. But, as someone else said, get a pedal tuner that mutes, the Mooer Baby Tuner is only $80. You say you don't want to go back to your rig on big stages, how do you check tuning then? Better to have one at your feet.

Then....if you're gonna have a tuner, you may as well add some fuzz....hehe come on, no one really hates pedalboards do they?


OR if you had told him, he could have gone wireless> rack tuner > rack comp > DI >RBI > amp
 
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#19
Jeff Scott said:
Did he do the same for any guitars and keyboards?
Click to expand...
I was wondering that, myself. How often does it happen that a bass amp fails, and is it a more common occurrence than the failure of the amplifier of any other instrumentalist? I can understand that he might want the two signals in order to choose the better sounding one or to be able to blend them, but just because the amp might blow up seems a bit of a lame reason to me.
 
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#20
Jeff Scott said:
Did he do the same for any guitars and keyboards?
Click to expand...

No keyboards. He did not take a second signal from the guitar, which was only mic'd. This makes sense given the reasoning he explained to me, since the guitarist could not produce the tones he needed for performance without using his entire rig. The tech could have taken a direct out the back of the amp, but that still leaves all the points of potential failure before the DI. For this venue I'll just rewire my rig so the tuner is out of the loop and comes right after the wireless. He can take his signal after the tuner, or a pre-EQ signal from the GK DI.
 
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