Fort Hood Shooting

[RWP]

We should avoid getting this onto a political tangent, if only because this discussion is really interesting and if we curtail it with a discussion on different ideological beliefs we'd be closed faster than the Lehman Brothers, and that'd be a shame.

Looking at the article, it seems like the shooter was in minor contact with a guy who had some passing contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers. But before we jump to conclusions here, its real easy to play the Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon, and you've got to figure that a lot of people with similar ideologies are fairly likely to cross paths, especially when you're perceived as such a minority in the country.

As far as I can see, the only link these guys hold was their shared belief that American military action in the Middle East was an attack on Islamic culture and society.

I agree and hope I have not been out of line.

 

[bassrique]

We should avoid getting this onto a political tangent, if only because this discussion is really interesting and if we curtail it with a discussion on different ideological beliefs we'd be closed faster than the Lehman Brothers, and that'd be a shame.

Looking at the article, it seems like the shooter was in minor contact with a guy who had some passing contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers. But before we jump to conclusions here, its real easy to play the Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon, and you've got to figure that a lot of people with similar ideologies are fairly likely to cross paths, especially when you're perceived as such a minority in the country.

As far as I can see, the only link these guys hold was their shared belief that American military action in the Middle East was an attack on Islamic culture and society.

The imam had more than a passing contact with 9/11 terrorists. The imam [forgot his name] also likes to preach violence against the West. [Search the 9/11 Commission for more on the imam's contacts with 9/11.]




As we learn more, it becomes even more obvious:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/hasan...ls/story?id=9065692&nwltr=blotter_featureMore

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

If Hasan had been a radical pro-lifer that attacked an abortion clinic with similar results, he would have been labeled a terrorist of another flavor overnight.



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To characterize a terrorist suicide bomber/shooter as crazy or the equivalent is kinda redundant, no?

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Terrorism has no ideology. people of many persuasions commit acts of terrorism.

Of course, but one radical aberration leads the pack.

 

[mike_v_s]

We should avoid getting this onto a political tangent, if only because this discussion is really interesting and if we curtail it with a discussion on different ideological beliefs we'd be closed faster than the Lehman Brothers, and that'd be a shame.

Looking at the article, it seems like the shooter was in minor contact with a guy who had some passing contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers. But before we jump to conclusions here, its real easy to play the Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon, and you've got to figure that a lot of people with similar ideologies are fairly likely to cross paths, especially when you're perceived as such a minority in the country.

As far as I can see, the only link these guys hold was their shared belief that American military action in the Middle East was an attack on Islamic culture and society.

It seems like a lot of people are hinging on the contact he had, the exact scope of which isn't really known, is it? That stated, I'm not to the point of discounting it, either. Assuming the reports are accurate, I'd say that his contact is just part of the picture that has people tossing out the "terrorist" label. The reports of his outburst prior to opening fire and a few other pieces seem to tighten up that viewpoint.

On the other hand, being Muslim and treating soldiers who were dealing with their experiences fighting a sect of people that he identified with might scramble some things. Depending on intent, this could very well be viewed as a workplace shooting, unfortunately not a foreign concept here.

Mike

 

[mike_v_s]

To characterize a terrorist suicide bomber/shooter as crazy or the equivalent is kinda redundant, no?

(I'll sidestep the "define a terrorist" angle and go with....)A good argument can be made that all terrorists are "crazy", but are all crazy people terrorists? He could fall into either at this point.

Mike

 

[AnchorHoy]

If Hasan had been a radical pro-lifer that attacked an abortion clinic with similar results, he would have been labeled a terrorist of another flavor overnight

Link Please

There have been quite a few abortion-provider murders in the past decade and I have yet to see a single one of those perps labeled a "terrorist" . That seems to be a term reserved by the MSM for 'foreigners', not Americans - which Hasan most certainly was

Despite all of the hype by certain "news" sources, Hasan definitely didn't fit the profile of a cunning Al-Quaeda terrorist - laying low and blending into the population before making his move

Looks to me more like an already unstable person that was pushed over the edge by a combination of his own screw-ups at work and the redneck element in the military harassing him - having his car keyed, "Allah is Love" bumper sticker torn up, etc.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

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To characterize a terrorist suicide bomber/shooter as crazy or the equivalent is kinda redundant, no?

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Depends on your side of the situation, brave becomes crazy as quickly as terrorist becomes hero.

 

[bassrique]

Link Please

There have been quite a few abortion-provider murders in the past decade and I have yet to see a single one of those perps labeled a "terrorist" . That seems to be a term reserved by the MSM for 'foreigners', not Americans - which Hasan most certainly was

Despite all of the hype by certain "news" sources, Hasan definitely didn't fit the profile of a cunning Al-Quaeda terrorist - laying low and blending into the population before making his move

Looks to me more like an already unstable person that was pushed over the edge by a combination of his own screw-ups at work and the redneck element in the military harassing him - having his car keyed, "Allah is Love" bumper sticker torn up, etc.

With all due respect, the bumper sticker angle isn't worth a bathtub fart. Most people in this country face slings and arrows w/out turning into mass-murdering terrorists.

Please consider that one does not need be a member of one particular Muslim terrorist group to be a Muslim terrorist. Would "violent jihadist" better describe the man?

 

[bassrique]

Depends on your side of the situation, brave becomes crazy as quickly as terrorist becomes hero.

The moral equivalence argument is a weak one [at least in this case].

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html

There's no putting lipstick on this pig.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

Its a matter of perspective. I'm not defending what the guy did, I'm asking you for elucidation on the moral difference between what this guy did and what armed forces everywhere do.

 

[jazzy grille]

Link Please

There have been quite a few abortion-provider murders in the past decade and I have yet to see a single one of those perps labeled a "terrorist" .

I have to agree here. I don't ever remember these people actually being called "Terrorists". It was always "Abortion clinic bombers/shooters.", I never really understood that.

No matter what way you cut it, they are terrorists.

 

[bassrique]

Its a matter of perspective. I'm not defending what the guy did, I'm asking you for elucidation on the moral difference between what this guy did and what armed forces everywhere do.

I can't speak for all organized state-to-state combat, but what Hasan did was clearly jihadist.

The best argument against the terrorist opinion that I have is Husan attacked a military base, which is considered "fair game" by many.

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link?

http://www.google.com/search?q=abor...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[mike_v_s]

With no clear definition of "terrorist" likely to be agreed upon, I'm left wondering why people are worried about the application of the label at all. Don't the motives, actions and results more or less speak for themselves? Will some people feel vindicated if he gets labeled a "terrorist"? Will others get the warm fuzzies if the next abortion doctor shooter gets called a "terrorist"? Why the concern that the label gets placed where you want it?

Mike

 

[bassrique]

With no clear definition of "terrorist" likely to be agreed upon, I'm left wondering why people are worried about the application of the label at all. Don't the motives, actions and results more or less speak for themselves? Will some people feel vindicated if he gets labeled a "terrorist"? Will others get the warm fuzzies if the next abortion doctor shooter gets called a "terrorist"? Why the concern that the label gets placed where you want it?

Mike

We are not at war with murderers of abortion practitioners. We are at war with those that are trying every day to obtain the technology to destroy Western cities. It's only a matter of time.

 

[mike_v_s]

We are not at war with murderers of abortion practitioners. We are at war with those that are trying every day to obtain the technology to destroy Western cities. It's only a matter of time.

But making sure everyone that feels that way gets the "terrorist" label doesn't change any of that. We could call them all the Fuzzy Slipper Gang and the motives and desires don't change. As for the abortion doctor killers, calling them terrorists doesn't do anything either. If it makes a few people happy to get to use the term in a place where it wasn't before, I see no issue with it. We could even tell them they won. Everyone's happy.

Mike

 

[bassrique]

It's not a label, it's the enemy we are at war with. 9/11 is but a warm-up of what's to come. If we are so damn PC we can't call a terrorist a terrorist, we are at a disadvantage.

 

[jazzy grille]

It's not a label, it's the enemy we are at war with. 9/11 is but a warm-up of what's to come. If we are so damn PC we can't call a terrorist a terrorist, we are at a disadvantage.

I think Mike made a pretty good point above.

The label will not change anything, they are the same no matter what we call them. We are not at a disadvantage if we don't call them terrorists.

 

[bassrique]

If you can't identify something for what it is after the fact, finding such before the fact will be harder.

 

[jazzy grille]

If you can't identify something for what it is after the fact, finding such before the fact will be harder.

It does not matter if they can or can't be called terrorists. What we call them does not make them more easily found or identifiable.

 

[WalterBush]

It does not matter if they can or can't be called terrorists. What we call them does not make them more easily found or identifiable.

Yes, it does. If we identify someone as a "gang member" or "terrorist" as opposed to just plain "murderer," than we know they're part of a larger group, and can watch people who belong to the same group to see if they're getting ready to pull a repeat of what the original offender did.

To be more specific, the BTK killer was on his own; a serial murderer. He wasn't part of a larger operation, or guided by any ideology other than his own desires.

The 9/11 hijackers belonged to a larger organisation, who have loudly proclaimed what they want to do to us. By identifying them as terrorists, we know there are more of them, and to be on the lookout for similar behavior in others of that group as a warning that we might have another large- or small-scale attack on civilians coming.

 

[RWP]

This just gets worse and worse.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5919-Norfolk-Crime-Examiner~y2009m11d13-Alleged-Fort-Hood-shooter-had-Jihad-message-on-his-business-cards