Fractal Audio Club

[Texan]

@Rodrigues

I use the FM3 with an FC6 and a Genzler pedal preamp, 8 stand in switches, a way and a volume. It’s also on a modular board that I can remove only the FM3 and Genzler preamp for small gigs. The Austin Buddy bass pack has killer bass rigs if you only want to use the FM3. The customization is what makes the FM3 so versatile. So you can make it as big or little as you like.

For reference sound, I had been using headrush speakers and was never happy. I just upgraded to JBL 305P monitors and now I have a much more realistic reference.

 

[Challanger2]

I like big things -> Axe FX3
Fm3 would probably be enough
Maybe Something between Fm9

I have not decided yet.

What would you choose?
I am selling a lot of gear right now so money is not the problem.
Do I need a PA speaker for making a set up?
Or earphones are good for that?

I have the axe FX 3. It’s overkill, but the FM9 didn’t exist when I got mine and I really wanted dual amps. If you can afford it I’d recommend the 3, sounds terrific, you get all of the beta updates first, more IO options, best AD converters, etc. Only downside is it’s a bit more awkward to take to gigs.

For monitoring, I just got a Genzler bass array 410 cab. I’ve never really been a fan of the PA speaker approach for bass, I’ve gotten much better results with a real bass cab. It sounds good in headphones as well. Idk if you’re looking to get this for recording or live playing though.

 

[Rodrigues]

Do I need the turbo version?
Turbo is kind of word which triggers me -> shure I need a turbo.

I do not need a cab for stage only for at home to set up a rig. I always play with inears.

Is it possible to run my bass and a Moog threw the axe parallel?

 

[Challanger2]

Do I need the turbo version?
Turbo is kind of word which triggers me -> shure I need a turbo.

I do not need a cab for stage only for at home to set up a rig. I always play with inears.

Is it possible to run my bass and a Moog threw the axe parallel?

I don’t come anywhere near to maxing out my MK2, so I would say turbo is probably not needed unless you’re creating extreme ambient patches using multiple high quality reverbs and delays.

The axe FX 3 has 4 sets of ins/outs so I would think you could run the moog through it. Ie never used a moog so im not positive.

 

[Rodrigues]

I don’t come anywhere near to maxing out my MK2, so I would say turbo is probably not needed unless you’re creating extreme ambient patches using multiple high quality reverbs and delays.

The axe FX 3 has 4 sets of ins/outs so I would think you could run the moog through it. Ie never used a moog so im not positive.

Have you compared fractal with quad cortex or Kemper?
Should I make the step from tube amps to Modeling device?

 

[Challanger2]

Have you compared fractal with quad cortex or Kemper?
Should I make the step from tube amps to Modeling device?

I have not. I used to have a line 6 helix but upgraded to the fractal stuff. I find the amp modeling is better in fractal vs the helix.

I personally have avoided profilers like the kemper or quad cortex for bass since I don’t have a huge library of analog gear to profile. And given that bassists are such a small part of the quad cortex and kemper ecosystems, pack sellers and power users typically aren’t making content for bassists. I’m sure they can still sound good for guitar and bass, but I just don’t want to deal with profilers.

 

[jimfist]

I am a tube amp freak.
I had a lot of amps (Orange, Ampeg, Hiwatt, Fender, ...)
Once I tried a Kemper but it felt not right
I didn't get the access to the Desktop App in a short time and it felt not road worthy.

Now I am selling my Fender Superbassman because fender is even less road worthy than kemper in europe (Bad Fender support in EU)
I recognized the quad cortex and after that the fractal.
How difficult is it to set up a cool live rig? Do I need something else for set up or live?
Do I need a notebook for live to change settings?

It looks like you've already gotten into multi-effects modelers, so that experience will help you. I'm a FM9 owner, using it for live performance primarily.
The good news with Fractal gear is that there is so much technology and editable parameters that you should be able to find a modeled amp tone that works for you. But that can also be the downside since there is SO MUCH available that it can be overwhelming.
I recommend you go onto the Fractal Audio Forum and search some of the threads that apply to bass guitar.

As for on-the-fly editing, as previously mentioned, you can program front panel knobs to specific parameters of any block. I personally try to have everything sorted out in rehearsals and sound checks in order to avoid this while performing. Another thing to consider is that you have many options available via SCENES and CHANNELS to adjust your sounds on-the-fly. For example, I have a preset that allows me to step through 4 levels of overdriven tones via footswitch using the CHANNEL programming: A) CLEAN > B) MILD OVERDRIVE > C) PROMINENT OVERDRIVE > D) HEAVY OVERDRIVE.
You can also set up a switch to do this with variations to your amp model and speaker simulation (cab block IR), etc. I also have a switch that allows me to scroll through 4 different output levels of low-frequency ( sub 100Hz). So many programming techniques at your disposal.

Headphone tone creation can be hit-or-miss, so I recommend that somewhere along the tone creation process you use the exact REAL amplification system that you're using in performance, or something reasonably comparable, and adjust your tones in full group context at performance volume.

Speaking personally, the FM9Turbo is hands-down the best multi-effect modeling pedal I've ever owned, even though it is heavily oriented toward guitarists. The depth of programming and audio quality of the Fractal Audio gear is stellar IMHO.

 

[Challanger2]

@Rodrigues

I use the FM3 with an FC6 and a Genzler pedal preamp, 8 stand in switches, a way and a volume. It’s also on a modular board that I can remove only the FM3 and Genzler preamp for small gigs. The Austin Buddy bass pack has killer bass rigs if you only want to use the FM3. The customization is what makes the FM3 so versatile. So you can make it as big or little as you like.

For reference sound, I had been using headrush speakers and was never happy. I just upgraded to JBL 305P monitors and now I have a much more realistic reference.

Second the Austin buddy bass pack, it’s exceptional. Highly recommend

 

[Rodrigues]

I recommend you go onto the Fractal Audio Forum and search some of the threads that apply to bass guitar.

I found something in a thread from you on the fractal forum
You talked about fx II and you said that an amp is better.
What actually changed your mind? Did you find a other workflow or fx lll and FM9 is better now?

 

[jimfist]

I found something in a thread from you on the fractal forum
You talked about fx II and you said that an amp is better.
What actually changed your mind? Did you find a other workflow or fx lll and FM9 is better now?

I've posted up a lot of things on the Fractal forum, so I'd have to see the context to comment any further. I'd love to always gig with a great bass amp, but I don't enjoy hauling all of that stuff around, especially now that I know I can be happy with fully DI signal into a full-range monitoring setup.
FWIW, I haven't gigged with a traditional bass amp/head & cabinet for over 10 years, so I've been fully onboard with modeling for quite some time.

As for a comparison between the AxeFXII and the FM9Turbo, it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison IMO.
I was pretty happy with the AxeFxII for quite some time, but understand that I was using a Behringer MIDI footpedal (very quirky to program), which was much of the battle I was fighting. Otherwise, the AxeFxII was a nice step forward at the time, but the FM9Turbo is just so much easier to work with and get good sounds from. Naturally, Fractal is always improving their models, features and overall quality, and the FM9 is so much more refined than the AxeFxII.

For me the AxeFxIII is probably overkill, especially for my live performance needs...but I'd love to have one! Because most of my usage is performance based, I also prefer the all-in-one operation of the FM9 with integral programmable switching. The AxeFXIII would require the added pedal, and it's too much stuff, at too high a cost. The FM3 is also nice, but for me there are too many limitations and constraints for how I like to program.

 

[NeilGB]

@jimfist
‘fully DI signal into a full-range monitoring setup.’
Would you describe your monitoring setup? I am thinking of going fractal and monitoring is one area I am not sure of the best solution. Thanks

 

[jimfist]

@jimfist
‘fully DI signal into a full-range monitoring setup.’
Would you describe your monitoring setup? I am thinking of going fractal and monitoring is one area I am not sure of the best solution. Thanks

Sure, but with the caveat that your needs and mine may or may not exactly align in terms of the intended output goal.

I generally gig thru a full-blown PA system with a compliment of powerful, clean stage monitors, which I typically use for my bass without any other bass amplification on stage. It's quite expensive, though not the only way to go about this. We're a "loud rock band" in every sense of the term.

I'd hazard to say that the process of CREATING your modeled tone via full-range speakers may be more critical than what is used on stage to hear yourself on the gig - IF you have FOH sound reinforcement to do the heavy lifting of amplifying the bass sound to the audience.

I'm happy to go into more specific detail if you like. I use different setups for different use cases.

 

[NeilGB]

Thanks for the reply. I understand our use cases will differ. I do not play with loud bands but I need to account for both with and without pa support for the bass.
I would appreciate any help on the kind of equipment that works for full range monitoring of bass with the Fractal. I can then work on how to scale it to suit.
I have regular bass amplification and could use this at first. Not sure if I would be missing out on something.

 

[jimfist]

Thanks for the reply. I understand our use cases will differ. I do not play with loud bands but I need to account for both with and without pa support for the bass.
I would appreciate any help on the kind of equipment that works for full range monitoring of bass with the Fractal. I can then work on how to scale it to suit.
I have regular bass amplification and could use this at first. Not sure if I would be missing out on something.

This is long...apologies...

I tackled this many years ago, when there weren't a lot of full range, flat response PA speakers available unless you spent a TON of money on high-end touring speakers. Due to such a demand on the Fractal forum, Atomic Amps partnered with an audio guru named Jay Mitchell and they produced a really excellent sounding speaker cabinet, the CLR. It's a 12" coaxial design and I got in early and purchased 2 of their powered wedges. I later purchased a pair of un-powered CLR wedges. The Atomic Amps/CLR story is another whole can of worms.

At the same time, before the CLR was available, I also purchased a custom built pair of ported "traditional" bass cabinets, but loaded them with Ciare full range 15" coaxial drivers, biamped. Each cabinet, loaded, cost about $700 at the time (over 10 years ago), and I powered them initially with a Crown Xti8000, with its programmable internal crossover settings. I later would also use a GK 1001RBII in biamp mode. Both amps and all the cabinets were speak-on connections. Though the cabinets are full range, they are not so flat response without a lot of EQ, but do have a more traditional bass rig "feel", since they are bona fide bass guitar cabinets. I tend to prefer this for gigs where I need stage sound to carry the room.

Typically, I'll use the Atomic CLR cabinets to design my sounds in my ghetto home studio setup, and cranked up pretty loud to expose any problems.
Over a number of years, I've grown to understand the things that DO and DO NOT work well when creating modeled amp/cab/effects tones with Full Range PA speaker cabinets. With the CLR cabinets, they are so accurate that generally anything that works well on those cabinets will work well when I send my DI signal to any other Full Range PA system/monitor cabinet (or IEM).

When performing on a big stage with a huge PA/Monitor system, I've come to the conclusion that what I hear from my bass sound is pretty much mostly for me, and if our drummer or anyone else wants to hear more (or less), it is handled via their own discrete wedge or IEM mix. Thus, I tend to be less stressed about fussing with the modeled tone while on the gig, and mostly just concerned with being able to hear myself when the band is at full tilt. Because we usually have very high quality PA gear on our gigs, I just use my monitor wedge to hear myself, and it is PLENTY loud and sounds damn good! We also have very competent sound tech personnel on the gig, which is key. My sounds are usually tweaked at rehearsal for level/balance.

As for gigs where there's no PA support and I need a bass rig to cover the room audience, I'll choose an amp/speaker combination a-la-carte to suit the gig.
Small, relatively low volume/acoustic pub gigs: I'll use a powered CLR cabinet, or maybe a lightweight Class D bass amp head with an unpowered CLR.
Small bars with a drummer: I'll use 2 of the CLR unpowered cabinets OR one of my 15" coaxial ported cabinets with the GK1001RBII head.
Anything larger than that: two 15" ported cabinets w/the GK head. This rig gets very loud & rivals the output of my old all-tube SVT Classic rig w/8x10 cab.

This is what I've been doing for 10+ years, and I've sold all of my traditional bass cabinets (including the full SVT Classic rig). Although I did love my Ampeg rig, I don't miss moving it. My back is better off and I can always fit my rig into a sub-compact vehicle. Bear in mind that I've got about $4k invested in speakers, and another $2k or so invested in amplifiers. So you add the FM9Turbo to that (around $1800 USD), you pay the financial price for having a versatile, programmable, lightweight all DI rig that takes little space, with very fast setup/teardown time. But you don't HAVE TO go as crazy as I have. I'm sure I could get by with a lot less, maybe just the GK head, and a pair of speakers and be perfectly happy.

Also worth noting is that the cabinet modeling IR is something I use, but not always. Sometimes I'll use EQ/filtering instead of the cab sim. I go back and forth and both can sound great. It just depends on my mood or if I want the flavor of the cab sim or not.

Happy to share more if you have any other questions.

 

[NeilGB]

Thanks @jimfist for the detailed reply. This is very useful.

 

[doubleohnodj]

Was finally able to try out a used FM9 that I could return.

Ordered a new unit and am moving on from Quad Cortex this week. After going from HX stomp XL to QC, I really missed custom layouts and basic MIDI tools, but I needed more horsepower, and after demoing, I'm thrilled the FM9 is gonna do it for me!

Also amazing how much better having an actual synth module, even though it's not amazing, is - starting with a real raw waveform instead of trying to dirty up a clean signal (or being trapped in the weird boxes of the legacy L6 synth effects) is so much better.

 

[Diegombass]

Hi, I am thinking about moving from Line6 Hx Effects to Fractal Fm3 or Fm9.

I have tried Helix Native Amps and Cabs, and Hx Effects Distortions as preamps (Sansamp, Retro Reel, Temaah, KWB, Darkglass...) and I didn't like it for live situation. I feel that my bass sound is clearer with just a parametric EQ and some Deluxe Compressor, but the drives or preamps doesn't make my sound cut better in the mix. And it doesn't make me prefer an overdriven sound like could happen to me with an actual preamp (like my beloved GB Shuttle 6.2) or some other real bass amps.

Do you think that if I try Fractal I would change my mind about digital preamps, amps and cabs?

 

[NeilGB]

Hi, I am thinking about moving from Line6 Hx Effects to Fractal Fm3 or Fm9.

I have tried Helix Native Amps and Cabs, and Hx Effects Distortions as preamps (Sansamp, Retro Reel, Temaah, KWB, Darkglass...) and I didn't like it for live situation. I feel that my bass sound is clearer with just a parametric EQ and some Deluxe Compressor, but the drives or preamps doesn't make my sound cut better in the mix. And it doesn't make me prefer an overdriven sound like could happen to me with an actual preamp (like my beloved GB Shuttle 6.2) or some other real bass amps.

Do you think that if I try Fractal I would change my mind about digital preamps, amps and cabs?

This is a great question. I am in almost exactly the same position in that i like my amp and cabs - occasionally adding a JF Capo and an OE compressor. I have been experimenting with an HX Stomp (with and without IMA presets) and have not found anything that is useful in the real world (although i have had a lot of fun playing around with the capabilities of the HX Stomp).
In true TB style my solution is to throw money at the problem and upgrade to a FM9. The logic being that it is a higher quality product may lead to better results. Reading your post has made me rethink this. There is no reason that the FM9 will be a game changer vs the HX (and Fractal give little priority to bass as an instrument).
Maybe effects aren’t important after all.
I still want an FM9 though!

 

[jimfist]

Short version: virtually every tool you'd want to have to shape your tone exists in Fractal products. Whether you have the knowledge, skill, time and patience is really up to the user. This isn't to knock the end-user (Dammit Jim, I'm a bassist, not an engineer!), though it helps to have solid understanding of the technology. I'd actually recommend also looking at their new VP4 pedal for a more "budget" intro, though it doesn't feature amp/cab modeling.

IMO, it all depends on what it is a multi-fx modeler would deliver for you that you don't already have and that you're generally happy with.
I totally understand why a lot of new modeling users might NOT be in love with modeled IR-based cabinetry simulations and for a lot of reasons. If you leave that aspect out of the equation, IMHO you can't do better for raw tone shaping, enhancement and special effects than Fractal Audio. The big IF is whether you can deal with a totally different work flow and the required time spent understanding how to operate Fractal products.

Using my own experience as an example, I come from a combination of live/studio mixing and gigging as a bassist, so I have a good working knowledge regarding the relationship and inherent technical aspects of DI bass signal sent to the mixing console. So I'm fine geeking out on technology, but a lot of players aren't into that and prefer hardware knobs and switches without sophisticated programming. Or...consider learning a new skill set.

Over the years, Fractal has improved their modeling across the board, especially the amps and drive models. I've ditched my SVT rig and my SansAmp BDDI (both of which I gigged with extensively for years). Many years ago, in the earlier days of modeling, the digital stuff struggled a bit IMO, including Fractal. But today's Fractal products are exceptionally good-sounding, high quality pieces of technology. Using split-path signal flow within the FM9, I'm able to get a very broad range of tones from ultra-clean to heavily distorted, all while fitting in the mix well and not feeling like I'm sacrificing quality in any way. YMMV.

 

[Diegombass]

Thanks for your answers.

I am not professional, but I have worked mixing/editing audio on some DAWs/digital and analog mixers. So I think I would have an easy adaptation to Fractal.

The VP4 could be nice for an initial aproach to Fractal world, but I use more than 4 blocks on my Hx.

What I expect from switching to Fractal is start using amp models and overdrives because I like them more than without it. I also expect a quality step on pitch, modulation, delay and reverb effects.