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Double Bass French / German poll
- Thread starter Andy Mopley
- Start date
The bow that I got when I bought my first used bass was German. What did I know? I played it as if it were French until I started taking lessons and the teacher gave me a weird look. He taught me German because that's what he knew...he was a jazz guy, not classical.
The German bow for me was very easy to use-- almost natural hand hold. I played it until it broke and I bought an "expensive" $125 French bow at a great string shop(?) in Albuquerque. The French bow took some getting used to but I've been playing the same one all these years --and that was 1961. I had it appraised a few years ago at $300.
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I never got far enough with the French hold to be able to do it without pain. Never had pain even when beginning on German.
I like the German bow but don't like the machinations one has to do to play the E string. The only pain I had was on the side of my thumb from the stick of the bow. I now have a tough callous and have no pain or discomfort.
BTW. Those Kaplans just get better as they break in. I just realized I used to love Kaplan Golden Spiral gut stings. They were great but then they were discontinued for some dumb reason. Are they from the same company?
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Others will know more than me, but Kaplan strings are now made by D'Addario. I suspect that the Golden Spirals were made by the Kaplan company before it was acquired.
Started out on French bow with my first teacher, a jazz guy. Fast forward a couple of years, when another teacher (orchestra guy) taught me how to use the German bow. Since then I've periodically revisited the French bow but I favor the German bow.
I've played French for decades now, but if I were starting over again knowing the advantages and disadvantages of the two, I would choose German. The German bow hold is much more natural, and the German bow is much more conducive to a natural bow stroke using arm weight and pulling from the back and shoulder.
I wonder why then cellists don’t use a German grip ( the distance is of course shorter ).
How about a fourth option:
O Just Pizz
Every time I use the bow I realize how much better I sound pizzicato.
O Just Pizz
Every time I use the bow I realize how much better I sound pizzicato.
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Well, this is the "Orchestral Technique" forum.
I too am much better pizz, but I don't think the orchestra would have me if I stuck only to that!
Well, this is the "Orchestral Technique" forum.
Gosh, they'll let just anybody in here (me) won't they.
I'm not a cellist by any stretch (although I do own a cello), but the cello bow stroke seems quite a bit lighter and generally more finesse-oriented than the bass bow stroke. I did find this photo of a cellist playing underhanded, but you will see that this person is not really utilizing it for the advantages I mentioned:
Way out from the frog, fingers on the hair to control the tension...I have an odd feeling that they're playing some bass viol(-inspired at least) literature right there.
I can’t see the head or the screw, but that’s a typical Baroque hold.
Same here.
Makes me think that the French hold adapts poorly to bass vs. how it performs with a violin.
Not sure that's a fair conclusion. I started on German because it felt so natural, and more importantly it was pain free. I also think German is far better for quick changes between arco and pizz.
However...
I played German exclusively for my first year or two on upright. At some point I was in rehearsals for All City, and my German bow was severely damaged. I needed a bow for the concert on the following day, and only French was available. To my surprise, I found that I could immediately bow faster and more precisely with the French bow. There was a long passage in one of the pieces that I found brutally painful with French though.
Following this, I used both bows for a period of time. The idea is I used the Germany for pretty much everything except speed. I had hoped that I would be able to develop the necessary speed and accuracy with the German bow, but it did not happen. Eventually I transitioned to exclusively French. It took some time to develop the strength and technique that allowed me to play pain free, and I always missed the German bow when the music changed quickly back and forth between arco and pizz.
Actually I am extremely surprised by the current poll results. My observation has been the majority plays French. But I have not been active on the instrument for about a decade now, so maybe things have changed.
Regardless, I do not think the French bow is poorly suited to upright bass. Rather I still believe each type has certain advantages and disadvantages. I chose enhanced speed and accuracy over comfort and quick changes between arco and pizz.
I am not saying you should make the same choice, or that your experience has been the same as mine. For all I know, you can play faster and more accurately with German.
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
Funny, that's the exact opposite of my impression.
In terms of distance travelled (watching the bow's tip), French would seem to be less effort. German bow gets dropped almost straight down to the floor, but usually French is going up by maybe 45°. The smaller frog should also mean more maneuverability in the hand.
In really extreme cases of back-and-forth arco/pizz changes, French has the advantage that you don't actually need to change the bow hold at all. You can leave the bow horizontal and the middle finger can still pluck the string. If you absolutely need to keep things compact, you can have the plucking finger and the hair less than an inch apart.
And if I want a harder or faster two-finger style pizz, the small French frog allows for that. I have no idea how to do that with a German bow without setting it down completely.
You must have mastered some tricks that I have not. When I go to a pizz hold with French, the tip goes up and the frog fills the entire palm of my hand. If the pizz section is relatively short and easy, this works fine. But if the line is fast or extended, holding the French bow really gets in the way and forces me to modify my technique. No two finger technique is possible for me without the bow shaft smashing against the fingerboard.
If possible, I usually prefer to get the French bow out of my hand, which is hard for me to do without slamming the bow into something.
I have tried several French pizz few grips and they feel unstable and force the muscles in my hand to sort of work against themselves...I.E. the grips feel unnatural and unsecure.
When I switch to pizz with the German, the tip drips and the pinkie goes into the frog. My upper palm is only filled with the shaft and screw. The way the frog and shaft fills my hand seems way more ergonomic and it has much less impact on my pizz technique. Two finger technique is only slightly impacted.
Here is an image I found online.
This feels way more secure and stable to me. I can use both index and middle to pluck, and also it's possible to brace the thumb against the fingerboard (if desired).
In comparing the way each frog takes up space in my hand. The German frog is bigger but it only take up space from my ring finger down. The French actually takes up more space palm.
I modified the image. Green is the approximate area taken up by the German frog, and red is the area taken up by the French.
As opposed to the German-grip problem: The shaft hitting the bass's body.
