Double Bass French Orchestras, Bow Hold Prerequisite

[User4843936]

“Archet francais souhaité” is something I’ve seen on at least one French bass job advert. Spelling could be off but pretty sure that means “French bow desired”.

If you turned up and played your way past a screened round with the ‘wrong’ bow for any given audition, I wonder what would happen when the panel saw you with the offending tool? Ejected from the competition immediately? Previously held assumptions trump what reality shows them if they do let you play? Previously held assumptions block any openness to new experience? Given the benefit of the doubt?

If you were to ask the players in sections which have a requirement to use one type of bow over another, what do you think the ideas of superiority or inferiority of the other or the in-group would be? I wonder if there would even be a consensus of overlapping points if the players were polled individually and independently?

 

[Calvin Marks]

“Archet francais souhaité” is something I’ve seen on at least one French bass job advert. Spelling could be off but pretty sure that means “French bow desired”.

If you turned up and played your way past a screened round with the ‘wrong’ bow for any given audition, I wonder what would happen when the panel saw you with the offending tool? Ejected from the competition immediately? Previously held assumptions trump what reality shows them if they do let you play? Previously held assumptions block any openness to new experience? Given the benefit of the doubt?

If you were to ask the players in sections which have a requirement to use one type of bow over another, what do you think the ideas of superiority or inferiority of the other or the in-group would be? I wonder if there would even be a consensus of overlapping points if the players were polled individually and independently?

German bow in France isn’t really an issue. French bow in Germany or Austria certainly is an issue - you would not be invited to audition.

 

[User4843936]

Ever come across the case of Abbie Conant? Lady trombonist invited to audition for and play with the Munich Phil as first trombone at the time when there were only men in the brass section. Crazy story you can read about where for years she put up with all sorts from her colleagues and the orchestra, wasn’t paid in line with her rank, etc etc. The invite they sent to her was even addressed to ‘herr’ (as in Mr) as they didn’t understand her name could be a woman’s name.

Now this particular issue is about seemingly unspoken bias but bias nonetheless, but in the end turned out they couldn’t prove scientifically that as a woman she wasn’t able to do her job as well as a man. It’s a fairly long read, but I’d highly recommend it.

http://www.osborne-conant.org/ladies.htm

The question still stands - what is it that the German bow or French bow majority sections don’t like about the other and do they even know as a group what it is, or are they simply precluding hearing anything new for the sake of exclusion? I’d have thought you would make argument out of greed that you’d want the talent pool you have access to to be as large as possible in order to keep your options open.

If I’m teaching or sat as principal with a mixed group of men, women, French bows, German bows, five strings four strings etc I make a number of requests that I expect everyone to use their individual capabilities to realise and then model the rest of how I think things should be done by sitting there and getting on with it. Whatever happens then happens and if there’s any need to deal with an issue I do so as and when.

Criticising a thing for what is not is just a move to grant yourself maximum leeway to tear anything down which doesn’t agree with your own concept of lived truth, one opinion against another. One thing can be true whilst another is too. If there’s an actual technical/sound related reason for exclusion or criticism, fine. But if not, why kid yourself? You might well be the only person you’re fooling.

 

[Les Fret]

The question still stands - what is it that the German bow or French bow majority sections don’t like about the other and do they even know as a group what it is, or are they simply precluding hearing anything new for the sake of exclusion?

One thing that can speak for a certain bow is uniformity in the section. It looks better if all people use the same bow. Might be as simple as that or it might be an old political thing who knows.

I don't care what bow someone plays as long as what comes out is good. There are more important things to worry about.

 

[User4843936]

One thing that can speak for a certain bow is uniformity in the section. It looks better if all people use the same bow. Might be as simple as that or it might be an old political thing who knows.

I don't care what bow someone plays as long as what comes out is good. There are more important things to worry about.

I’m not sure I equate uniformity with utility. If there’s a group doing something something with an equal amount of insufficiency according to some measure, then that uniformity is not good. Uniformity and its opposite can cut both ways as far as I can see.

As far as the ‘which bow’ issue, as you say, as long as whatever’s required comes out of the instrument when it’s agreed that’s supposed to happen, I don’t see grounds for objection to any type of bow. At this point I’ve seen great and terrible playing of all varieties. At least according to my taste.

 

[Calvin Marks]

Well, in Austria and Germany they care a lot about history/culture and want to adhere to what has “worked” for generations. They use instruments which are often local to the region or have been played by other past members of the orchestra for ages - they care about uniformity and style, both acoustically and visually.

There will be hundreds of talented German bow players that use similar grips and play in similar styles that could be called up as subs so I don’t know “why” they would try and do anything different if they have a methodology which works for them.

 

[Papageno]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

The bassists should not complain. They only had to change their bow hold!

If the guy had been left handed, he would have requested that all string players play left handed...

Seriously, such an arrogant attitude is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Papageno]

I searched this point on the french forum of DB players. I found an announcement for a position at Orchestre National de Lyon, which mentions explicitly that French and German bow holds are equally welcome. The opening was 10 years old.

That suggests that the kind of conservative attitude that would allow only French bow is not prevalent any more.

 

[kinnon64]

I searched this point on the french forum of DB players. I found an announcement for a position at Orchestre National de Lyon, which mentions explicitly that French and German bow holds are equally welcome. The opening was 10 years old.

That suggests that the kind of conservative attitude that would allow only French bow is not prevalent any more.

Thanks for the info!

 

[ILIA]

Yes, it's Stephane Deneve. I don't know why my teacher would tell me this if it's not true.

I have seen the orchestra before Deneve, and I don't remember any German holds, so it may have been almost a fait accompli. But to be honest, "before Deneve" also means "before I started learning to bow."

I hope a member of the St. Louis Symphony bass section hears about this conversation and chimes in, because the scenario described by your teacher sounds ludicrous. Sometimes intermittent major symphony subs like to look "in-the-know" to everyone else completely outside of the major symphony organization, and will say stuff that they shouldn't be saying just to look like they have info that only the "in" crowd would know. It's a variation of the name drop, among other networking and professional positioning techniques commonly used by freelancers. Most of the time, this kind of talk is harmless marketing and annoying at worst, but this is the kind of talk that can discourage a young student who is playing a different bow hold style from the bow holds that are "allowed" in their hometown orchestra.