Double Bass French Orchestras, Bow Hold Prerequisite

[kinnon64]

Hi All,

I know that in German and Austrian orchestras German bow is a prerequisite. Is the same true (but for French bow) in French orchestras? In the videos I've watched I haven't seen a German bow yet. Thanks!

 

[Lee Moses]

I have been told that's true, but I don't know it as fact.

 

[Malten]

I once had a lesson with Thierry Barbé (principal in the Paris Opera) and I seem to remember him telling me that there were also some German bow players in the orchestra. I believe that there is a few videos of him using a German bow and as I remember, he said that he likes to change bows sometimes in the orchestra as well, particularly for very long operas.
However, the vast majority probably play French bow and I have seen some orchestras that will specify that only French bow players will be accepted for auditions - in other orchestras they might not write this directly but it will be considered a given.

Same thing goes for Germany btw; some orchestras will require German bows for auditions, either specifying it before hand or not, but there are exceptions. I have heard of some French bow players in German orchestras although very few. I like to think that they are beginning to be more open to the idea but there is definately still a long way to go.

 

[LaFaro01]

Thierry Barbé is one of the best "examples" how to solve this "problem"... do you know his statements about german versus french bow?!?
Donat Zamiara asks 10 questions to Thierry Barbé | Thierry Barbé double bass website
240: Thierry Barbé on expressive music, German bow, and French basses, by Jason Heath | Thierry Barbé double bass website
short abstract..learn both... it's the healthiest way

 

[kinnon64]

Thanks for your replies @LaFaro01 , @Malten , and @Lee Moses! Most insightful. I saw a job open a French orchestra and thought "that would be cool", but I don't think I will take on French bow at the moment.

 

[AGCurry]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

 

[kinnon64]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

Wow! I had heard of that happening here in Scandinavia 30+ years ago, where the bow hold changed depending on the solo bassist. Nowadays it's an even mixture between French and German in most sections. Interesting to hear that these types of changes are still happening in the US!

 

[LaFaro01]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

wonder, whether he (the conductor) can hear the difference..
but you might get some good german bows at a good price now in St. Louis

 

[Flamingo21]

Here in The Netherlands, I imagine any conductor who tried this would be just laughed at.

 

[AGCurry]

Here in The Netherlands, I imagine any conductor who tried this would be just laughed at.

Well, I suspect that bassists are easier to find than conductors.

My understanding is that the German-hold guy was quite gracious about making the change, in the spirit of learning something new and challenging. He'd probably sound better than many of us (1000x better than me!) using even a violin bow. Not to mention that you don't want to get sideways with the conductor!

 

[SAlcott]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

I find it astonishing that a conductor would get away with that today without major Union pushback.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Thierry Barbé is one of the best "examples" how to solve this "problem"... do you know his statements about german versus french bow?!?
Donat Zamiara asks 10 questions to Thierry Barbé | Thierry Barbé double bass website
240: Thierry Barbé on expressive music, German bow, and French basses, by Jason Heath | Thierry Barbé double bass website
short abstract..learn both... it's the healthiest way

"I can get the same sound with any bow on a bass." - M. Barbé

Whoah, that's certainly something to aspire to, but I sure ain't anywhere near being able to do that.

 

[Calvin Marks]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

seems quite absurd and I’m not sure if it is true. I don’t think a conductor can require that of a bass section - some people just CANT play the other bow and it can take years to learn the other grip. If it is true it is pretty silly

 

[Calvin Marks]

I find it astonishing that a conductor would get away with that today without major Union pushback.

sounds like total bs.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Maybe this old story really is true:
When an orchestral beginner shows minimal talent playing strings or woodwinds/brass, they put him on percussion/drums. If this proves too much for his ability they take one drum stick away and he gets to be conductor.

 

[Les Fret]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

I think there should be a demonstration against this: Bow Lives Matter!

 

[David Potts]

The conductor plays with the only instrument that doesn't make a sound.

 

[Calvin Marks]

During my lesson yesterday, my teacher - who is sometimes called to play with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra - told me that the new conductor (French!) has specified that the bassists use only the French hold. One of the tenured bassists had to change his hold in order to keep his job.

Was your teacher referring to Stephane Deneve? Cause he also conducts the Brussels Philharmonic and the principal bass is a German bow player - honesty seems like like BS.

can you imagine a conductor walking into the Berlin Phil and telling them to use French bows? He would be laughed out of the concert hall and never invited back

 

[AGCurry]

Yes, it's Stephane Deneve. I don't know why my teacher would tell me this if it's not true.

I have seen the orchestra before Deneve, and I don't remember any German holds, so it may have been almost a fait accompli. But to be honest, "before Deneve" also means "before I started learning to bow."

 

[Calvin Marks]

Yes, it's Stephane Deneve. I don't know why my teacher would tell me this if it's not true.

I have seen the orchestra before Deneve, and I don't remember any German holds, so it may have been almost a fait accompli. But to be honest, "before Deneve" also means "before I started learning to bow."

I worked with Stephane 11 years ago and our section had 3 German bow players - never heard anything like this. He was a guest conductor so probably different but the days of Toscanini-like conductors requiring bass players to use certain gear are long since gone