Double Bass Fretless Electric - helps transition from BG to DB?

[Steve Freides]

If you teach or if you've been through this yourself, what do you think of the idea of suggesting an electric bass guitar player try playing a fretless electric bass guitar as a transitional instrument before moving to double bass? I ask for a very simple reason - it's what I did.

When I decided I wanted to try playing double bass (I'd been playing electric bass guitar for a few decades already), the first thing I did was pick up an inexpensive fretless electric bass on ebay and played that for a year, maybe two, before I took the double bass plunge. Not all the time, of course, but I played it with an eye towards improving at it, and even managed to take it to a few gigs.

I specifically went for an _unlined_ fretless electric bass guitar - it did have a few dots on the side of the neck but not on the fingerboard - I wish it didn't, but in retrospect, I'm not sure the dots were all that bad. I think playing a _lined_ fretless electric would be having too much visual assistance about where to put your fingers.

For me, it worked well - it got me listening for intonation and I think that really helped me when I picked up the double bass. It goes without saying that playing fretless electric does _not_ make for a simple and seamless transition to db, but I do think it can be a great first step - anything that makes the transition less dramatic is almost certainly a plus.

Anyone else take a similar route or have observations about this one to offer?

-S-

 

[MonetBass]

It's great for developing your ear and sense of intonation, as you mentioned. That is certainly a big part of playing DB. But obviously the technique, which is a huge part of playing DB, won't be helped much by playing fretless electric. My $0.02.

 

[TroyK]

It doesn't hurt. But, does it help more than other types of ear training would?

I could suggest that; If you're playing EBG in a rock band and want to play DB, but don't want to spend the money yet, spend 6 months working with a metronome while you're shopping and saving up, it will help the transition. ...or play scales, intervals and arepeggios on the piano ... or work on your reading or ...

It all helps you develop as a musician, but it's not a direct path from A to B. We have a lot of people come through here who claim that because they have been playing a fretless P-Bass they are expecting DB to be an easy transition for them. This doesn't take into account a number of things, including the difficulties in producing sound from an unwieldy, acoustic instrument.

I'm not trying to dump on it, but I think we need to be careful not to oversell the progression here either.

 

[Stick_Player]

For "developing" your intonation, you could probably gain as much by playing fretless banjo or sarod.

EB is not the same as DB.

If this "transition" instrument worked for you -- that's great!

It's good to be able to play both - EB & DB!

"it did have a few dots on the side of the neck but not on the fingerboard - I wish it didn't, but in retrospect, I'm not sure the dots were all that bad."

Edgar Meyer has dots on his fingerboard...

Link Removed

 

[Steve Freides]

I think the relevant saying here is that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If your ear is what needs work, then absolutely, that's where one's focus ought to be.

I'm a theory and ear-training teacher with perfect pitch - playing fretless electric before playing double bass was a good thing for me because it introduced me to the whole concept of being concerned with intonation.

I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't "oversell the progression" but I wanted to start this thread because I almost never see this mentioned as a suggestion, and I do think it is _one_ way to help make the transition - not the only way, and not the best way for everyone all the time, but it's another arrow in the quiver.

-S-

It doesn't hurt. But, does it help more than other types of ear training would?

I could suggest that; If you're playing EBG in a rock band and want to play DB, but don't want to spend the money yet, spend 6 months working with a metronome while you're shopping and saving up, it will help the transition. ...or play scales, intervals and arepeggios on the piano ... or work on your reading or ...

It all helps you develop as a musician, but it's not a direct path from A to B. We have a lot of people come through here who claim that because they have been playing a fretless P-Bass they are expecting DB to be an easy transition for them. This doesn't take into account a number of things, including the difficulties in producing sound from an unwieldy, acoustic instrument.

I'm not trying to dump on it, but I think we need to be careful not to oversell the progression here either.

 

[John Crosley]

I started out on DB (requirement), played EBG (both fretted and fretless) for around 25 years exclusively, then went back to playing DB. It amazed me what knowledge I had retained about playing the instrument, but at the same time, trying to remember how to pull a sound from the instrument, due to just the physical nature of the instrument, had to be relearned - first and foremost if I was going to seriously consider playing it again. It is a much larger instrument, and there is a learning curve to be considered. I am not trying to discourage, just attempting to prepare you, so you can transition (students as well as yourself) with certain criteria to look for, and work on.

 

[Jack Clark]

I generally play an odd bass, so I don't regularly play either DB or fretless BG, although I have dabbled with both. The "string theory" is similar, but the physical demands are entirely different—seems to me almost as different as going from BG to tuba.

 

[Steve Freides]

I generally play an odd bass, so I don't regularly play either DB or fretless BG, although I have dabbled with both. The "string theory" is similar, but the physical demands are entirely different—seems to me almost as different as going from BG to tuba.

Personally, I don't see the differences as that large - not at all. And although I don't play tuba, I do play several other brass instruments.

At the risk of repeating myself, my point in this thread was that this is a tool I don't think we hear about enough. It's not the only tool, and for sure no one can say with certainty that it's the right tool for a particular person at a particular point in their development as a double bass player.

But - it is a tool we should all keep in mind, and since it needn't be expensive and has a nice "cool" factor, it's one worth considering.

-S-

 

[gerry grable]

I've read threads like this before regarding the switch from BG to DB with interest, however I don't recall reading anything on the problems of the opposite switch: DB to BG.
I bought a Fender Jazz Bass in '69 under pressure. The bands that I was working with wanted to "hear" the bass. I had tried the DeArmound bass pickup but it was lousy, and regular microphones picked up too much of everything. I just "showed up" one night with the Fender and a B15-- after having fooled around with it for a few days.
The dots and the inlays on the board came in handy since for some reason (for me) it was difficult to judge my positions on the narrow, horizontal fingerboard. Reading was particulary hard since I was always looking at my left hand. I always had to keep the amp volume low since I instinctively dug in much too hard. I had to consciously think "light touch." But most of all it was the bothersome buzzing of the frets, especially while soloing with, as I usually do, my eyes closed. What most of BG players don't realize is that you all play flat! Now don't get insulted. I said play (finger) flat, not sound flat.
By necessity you play on the north side of the frets and the position of your fingers isn't as critical as it would be with an un-fretted instrument. I by instinct reach for the note on the string which, if you have good instrument like my Jazz Bass, is right above the fret. Hence I often hit right on it and get noise and an unclear note. By the way, I obviously don't have a problem with my Ibanez fret-less. I'm no music teacher-- but is it possible that this hair-splitting phenomenon is at the root of the intonation problems that BG to DB players experience?

 

[Steve Freides]

Hence I often hit right on it and get noise and an unclear note. By the way, I obviously don't have a problem with my Ibanez fret-less. I'm no music teacher-- but is it possible that this hair-splitting phenomenon is at the root of the intonation problems that BG to DB players experience?

Sounds like you ought to ditch the fretted BG and stick with fretless BG.

 

[gerry grable]

Sounds like you ought to ditch the fretted BG and stick with fretless BG.

Close. . .I ditched them both and went back to DB

 

[damonsmith]

Unless they are working Simandl with an ebow (Like Mike Manrring does/did) it won't do much for true string-player intonation.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

I know this is the pedagogy forum and I'm intruding but I'm just going to throw in my comment and take off.

I played fretless EBG for almost 20 years before taking up the DB. From my standpoint now, 12 or so years of playing DB, I think the benefits were much more the other way around. DB improved my fretless EBG playing much more than the chop laid any kind of foundation for DB. (... and I think it might have laid some small foundation but not too much, to be quite honest. I learned much more about listening for in-tuneness via DB than via fretless EBG. Arco DB really, really, really exposes your intonation naked to the world!)

I think the reason is mostly to do with how DB (and violin instruments in general) teach you really deep down how to manage a string to make musical sounds. You really get to feel -- in a non-intellectual, monkey brain way -- how the whole string operates, where those harmonics and key landmarks are, and what kind of body motions are necessary to make those sounds.

Just my experience and my two bits.

 

[MR PC]

Unless they are working Simandl with an ebow (Like Mike Manrring does/did) it won't do much for true string-player intonation.

 

[John Crosley]

Just a side note due to some of the comments so far. I read somewhere (maybe Standing in the Shadows of Motown) that Jamerson (originally an upright player - turned bass guitarist) was given one of the first fretless instruments produced by Fender. He used it on (I believe) Someday We'll Be Together, and at the end of the session, threw it across the romm shouting 'Don't ever let me play that piece of $*** again!'. Just something to consider.

 

[RustyAxe]

I did the same, getting a fretless BG ... and really, it didn't help in the least. The two (DB and BG) are completely different beasts. Totally different techniques. Finding the notes (within reason) should be easy for any competent bass guitar player ... fine tuning to get exact intonation takes practice, of course, and the fretless BG doesn't help much since the spacing is so much greater on the DB. Left hand fingering is completely different (or SHOULD be).

There is no substitute for an upright bass, and no reasonable facsimile, either.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

There is no substitute for an upright bass, and no reasonable facsimile, either.

Sonically it's true there is no substitute for a double bass.
Mechanically there are EUBs that come close enough that you could learn a great deal of technique directly applicable to it though.

I'm not sure how much I buy the idea that playing one fretless instrument will be of major benefit to being able to play another fretless instrument. To some degree learning to hear in tune will be helpful but I'd played fretless BGs before starting the double bass and remember quite clearly how much work I had to do to be able to play the DB in tune. It seemed more a matter of developing the technique and muscle memory necessary to not have to fight the DB physically. Hearing whether or not you're in tune is fundamental to the DB but it's beside the point if you can't make your body cooperate with the bass well enough to execute.

Learning Simandl fingerings on the EB would have been more useful to me. Effective teaching comes down to the needs of the individual student and I'd never say there aren't any kids out there who wouldn't gain knowledge from the fretless EB applicable to the DB. I just don't really see it.

 

[erniepro]

Another thing to consider
The playing positions and string lengths are different and there is the use of the bow with DB
As mentioned above there is some use in developing intonation skills without frets, but there are so many adjustments to fingerboard lengths across instruments

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Sonically it's true there is no substitute for a double bass.
Mechanically there are EUBs that come close enough that you could learn a great deal of technique directly applicable to it though.

I played BG for many years and although I knew I wanted to play Jazz and DB, I put off the transition for several years and wish I had just "jumped in" earlier!

I think the problem is psychological - for me, I just didn't want to go back to being a beginner again, especially when I was playing in bands that had some well-paying gigs.

I bought an EUB and played that for a while - but it is in no way the same as DB and since getting a DB I haven't touched the EUB at all and have hardly played BG.

I would say if you have any desire to play DB, just do it! Don't put it off and don't try for transitions - it's worth having a period of time, where you can't do anything and even one tune wears you out and makes you have to stop!

The more time you have with the DB the better and once you get into it - you will want to spend all your time with it!

 

[Tom Lane]

I followed the same progression to DB. I've played guitar since I was 8, got curious about bass and so rented a fretted BG. I found that easy and pleasant and traded it for a fretless BG. I found that more fun and traded it for a DB. I didn't have the guitars for more than a few months but one of things I concentrated on when I first picked up the DB was training my hear to hear intonation correctly, not just find it on the bass. I found that I liked to hear 5ths played sharp and 3rds played flat and it took a few months before I always heard the just intonation. I think playing a fretless anything will help with that aspect of learning to play upright. The downside, is that it is very easy to pick up fingering habits, both right and left hand, that will serve you very badly on the upright. Not insurmountable, but more bad habits to break along with over-eating and watching too much TV.