Fretless - lined or unlined? Let's survey this question..What's your preference?

[Jeff Scott]

There's a lot of false conclusions that are being jumped to here.
1. Having lines does not make them your primary visual focus. All instruments have visual cues- if you have no lines and even no dots, you still have the neck and your hands to stare at. Staring at the lines without also listening is the choice of the player, not an ingrained action. Looking at side dots is no different than looking at lines- they're both an aid to get your hand in the right place. What does one being a more "rough" reference do to make it better than the other- you still want visual cues but don't want them to be that accurate? You're no more likely to get overly focused on lines than you are to become overly focused on side dots.
2. Having lines does not make you use your ears any less. Reliance on your ears is completely up to the player, not the instrument. There are people who can't look and listen with equal attention paid to both. These are likely the same people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
3. You are matching a visual marker when you play fretless; whether you choose to pay attention to it to take advantage of it is another matter. An in tune note is not some ephemeral thing- the notes are in a specific, repeatable location. Twist your tuners like crazy and the notes are still in a fixed, repeatable location , just a different distance from the dots or lines than they were before. There's been many studies proving the benefits of hand eye coordination- you're going to get to a stronger place if you use all three, and likely with a shorter learning period and a stronger memorization.
4. The proof's in the pudding. If playing unlined put fretless players in a stronger place, there'd be a noticeable difference in skill between lined and unlined players, and/or a large percentage of the top bassists would be using unlined. We all know neither of those are true.

Good intonation doesn't come from just your ears. Your ears only tell you if you played the right note after the fact, when it's too late. It's getting your hands in the right place before you play the note that matters. Your eyes and your ears will aid you in getting your fingers in the right place, and using both with get you there faster.

This subject comes up here usually a couple times a year. It's unfortunate that the same dogmas don't ever seem to subside.

Sometime last decade I was at a Brian Bromberg clinic hosted by Peavey. After Brian was finished he let us play his two (fretted and fretless) B-Quad basses. I was sitting with a guy who tried out the fretless and he complained that he couldn't play in tune (it had lines) on it to save his life. This was after Brian played some smokin' music on it, with everything being perfectly in tune. So, what was up with that that this dude couldn't play in tune?

Well, for one, he was playing the bass IN BETWEEN THE LINES! I saw that and told him that he needed to have his fingertips ON the line, not in between them. He proceeded to lecture me on how the lines were just like frets and he places his fingers between the frets on a fretted bass. Okay. When I explained to him, once again, about how to play a lined fretless bass and then proceeded to play the B-Quad for him, I think he might have gotten it, not really sure about that, though. Some people are really dense, ya' know.

So, this goes to show that even lines can't help some people when it comes to playing a fretless bass in tune.

 

[Watchootognbout]

I would think that the ultimate fretless skill test would to be to play a fast tune.(Giant Steps?)
Completely in tune without looking at the fingerboard at all.

 

[bucephylus]

Sometime last decade I was at a Brian Bromberg clinic hosted by Peavey. After Brian was finished he let us play his two (fretted and fretless) B-Quad basses. I was sitting with a guy who tried out the fretless and he complained that he couldn't play in tune (it had lines) on it to save his life. This was after Brian played some smokin' music on it, with everything being perfectly in tune. So, what was up with that that this dude couldn't play in tune?

Well, for one, he was playing the bass IN BETWEEN THE LINES! I saw that and told him that he needed to have his fingertips ON the line, not in between them. He proceeded to lecture me on how the lines were just like frets and he places his fingers between the frets on a fretted bass. Okay. When I explained to him, once again, about how to play a lined fretless bass and then proceeded to play the B-Quad for him, I think he might have gotten it, not really sure about that, though. Some people are really dense, ya' know.

So, this goes to show that even lines can't help some people when it comes to playing a fretless bass in tune.

That is precisely the main reason a lot of capable players do not prefer lines. Cats who visually target the space between frets on a fretted instrument get the wrong visual reference on a lined fretless where the dots are between the lines. They need different marks, and the side dots on an unlined board tend to work better for them.

Again, all fretless bass guitar players use reference marks of some kind. The thing is to figure out what works best for the individual player. Meanwhile, there are no marks that are better than other marks. They're just marks. No one can hear them. Playing musical lines with good intonation is what matters. We are best to support each other in that objective, irrespective of which marks get used.

Just as an example of our individual idiosyncrasies, I am good with either dots between lines and lines, or with dots at the line positions and no lines. The thing with dots on the lines and lines is almost unplayable for me. But, that works for other players. So, whatever works, works.

The main thing is whether or not the dance floor is full.

 

[bucephylus]

Looking at side dots is no different than looking at lines- they're both an aid to get your hand in the right place.

That's the deal.

 

[Old Blastard]

I have both. I prefer the unlined. After playing cello, the lines throw me off untilmI play it for a while. Then I'm ok. Just ordered a fretless from Andrew Drake with no lines. Can't wait to get it.

 

[Chasarms]

In my experience, lines don't help nor hinder a great deal. Although, I am typically in a setting where I am reading music in some form (usually charts) So, I can't really look at the fingerboard anyway. That said, the notion of a lined fingerboard being "training wheels" is simply an arrogant statement for those who like to inflate themselves. You have to practice on either to become proficient, and the lines are not going to save you from playing out of tune. I have had both and have had moments of bliss and moments of blunder on both.

That said, I have sold all of my fretless basses. IME, unless you have a setting and style where the fretless can be featured, it is no more than self-indulgent to use one. If there is no style and musical space to demonstrate the unique character of the fretless, you may as well play a fretted instrument. Of course, if you simply prefer fretless, then by all means.

 

[bucephylus]

BTW, I just played an audition for a local orchestra. 4 member panel. I played the Dm top half of Kol Nidrei for the solo; which seemed timely. I happen to have a very nice upright, and love the opportunity to get it out and hear it in a big room.

My upright has neither dots nor lines. But, I think for fretless bass guitar players, we seem to have dots players and lines players. I'm not aware of anyone rockin it with neither dots nor lines.

 

[bholder]

1) Yes
2) Unlined
3) either, lines aren't really a factor either way
4) Yes
5) I prefer unlined for looks. Lines don't really help much in proper playing position, side markers are far more important.

 

[Old Blastard]

In my experience, lines don't help nor hinder a great deal. Although, I am typically in a setting where I am reading music in some form (usually charts) So, I can't really look at the fingerboard anyway. That said, the notion of a lined fingerboard being "training wheels" is simply an arrogant statement for those who like to inflate themselves. You have to practice on either to become proficient, and the lines are not going to save you from playing out of tune. I have had both and have had moments of bliss and moments of blunder on both.

That said, I have sold all of my fretless basses. IME, unless you have a setting and style where the fretless can be featured, it is no more than self-indulgent to use one. If there is no style and musical space to demonstrate the unique character of the fretless, you may as well play a fretted instrument. Of course, if you simply prefer fretless, then by all means.

I often play the fretless in an acoustic duo just to add a different sound. And a BL has asked me to play when his band does electric gigs (bassist is a keyboarder in drag) and asked for the fretless. Most of the time, I agree. My fretted fit the music better.

 

[Pandastylebass]

1) are you a regular fretless electric bassist? - I play fretless less frequently as of late. I have not had calls to play fretless recently, but have had a fretless in my arsenal for over 20 years. I do play it regularly as a practice tool for ear training.

2) does the fingerboard or top edge of your favored fretless bass have lines, or is it fully unlined? - Unlined

3) all other things equal, if you bought your next fretless bass from a brand that offered the choice of either a Lined or Unlined fretless neck, which would you purchase? - Unlined

4) if you only had the one choice (as with Godin) of your less favored fingerboard preference, from your favored fretless bass brand, would you buy one? - yes

5) Please describe your view on this subject? - In the end it's all about the sound. The ultimate goal fretted or Fretless is to be able to play by ear and without looking at the neck for reference. IMO fretless helps develop that skill. I try to use my fretless as much as possible as a practice tool to see how well I can pick out notes and how accurate my muscle memory is. So when it comes down to it it's all about being comfortable playing.

 

[MVE]

I would think that the ultimate fretless skill test would to be to play a fast tune.(Giant Steps?)
Completely in tune without looking at the fingerboard at all.

I have been working on a fretless solo version of Autumn Leaves in Fm that goes from the F on the E string all the way up to the Db on th G string. - I will post a. video as soon as I can make a nice one.
Anyway, my ultimate goal is to be able to play it with a blindfold.

 

[bucephylus]

I have been working on a fretless solo version of Autumn Leaves in Fm that goes from the F on the E string all the way up to the Db on th G string. - I will post a. video as soon as I can make a nice one.
Anyway, my ultimate goal is to be able to play it with a blindfold.

Position shifts are a big deal.

My first upright teacher was Bob Gladstone, then principle with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. Bob was an amazing player. But, he used to drive his students absolutely nuts with position shift exercises. He was merciless. Some students couldn't take it and left.

Bass guitar is even harder, in terms of muscle memory and positional references.

 

[bucephylus]

In my experience, lines don't help nor hinder a great deal. Although, I am typically in a setting where I am reading music in some form (usually charts) So, I can't really look at the fingerboard anyway. That said, the notion of a lined fingerboard being "training wheels" is simply an arrogant statement for those who like to inflate themselves. You have to practice on either to become proficient, and the lines are not going to save you from playing out of tune. I have had both and have had moments of bliss and moments of blunder on both.

That said, I have sold all of my fretless basses. IME, unless you have a setting and style where the fretless can be featured, it is no more than self-indulgent to use one. If there is no style and musical space to demonstrate the unique character of the fretless, you may as well play a fretted instrument. Of course, if you simply prefer fretless, then by all means.

Great post. I am likewise finding far fewer gigs these days where the fretless is called for. Really makes me sad, because the fretless bass guitar is a beautiful instrument. We will hope this one comes back around.

 

[Torn Bassist]

I'm not a regular browser of TB and may have missed discussions on this topic. If you can direct me to such please do.

I'm one of those who tossed their fretted necks for a fretless in the 70's upon the phenom of Jaco..(i didn't break my thumbs..). In those days it was the standard Fender unlined fretless neck. Mine is long gone and the many fretless basses I've owned since have all been unlined. Lined fretless basses are virtually unplayable for me, it's like looking at the LA freeway system..I suppose I could learn to get used to one.. I also play fretted basses and am quite comfortable with them.

Obviously the world has evolved to a mix of lined and unlined fingerboards and/or lines along the top edge of the neck.

The market seems to favor lined fretless necks..many brands have all but dropped unlined necks. I'm a Lakland fan and have a 4 string unlined fretless but I haven't seen a new one from them without fretlines in some years.

As example, I recently bought a Godin Ultra A5. I liked the bass so much I bought it, but only after my luthier confirmed he could remove the lines along the top edge of the neck and reposition the dots..he did a great job. During the research of this buy I queried Godin directly whether they could provide an unlined neck via a custom shop option. No Way! was their response..I wonder what/who conducts their market research to drop unlined necks..

So let's conduct our own Fretless Bass Market Survey

1) are you a regular fretless electric bassist? - Y/N

2) does the fingerboard or top edge of your favored fretless bass have lines, or is it fully unlined? - Lined/Unlined

3) all other things equal, if you bought your next fretless bass from a brand that offered the choice of either a Lined or Unlined fretless neck, which would you purchase? - Lined/Unlined

4) if you only had the one choice (as with Godin) of your less favored fingerboard preference, from your favored fretless bass brand, would you buy one? - Yes/No

5) Please describe your view on this subject? - ________________________


Thanks for taking the time to share your view..I will tabulate and probably share (no names) with a few brands and ask them to describe what their marketing strategy is in offering lined vs. unlined fretless basses..

Ted

1) Yes
2) Unlined
3) Unlined
4) No
5) I prefer the unlined board with side markers

 

[Doner Designs]

I like that not having lines forces me to use my ears.

 

[tfer]

Lined or unlined - it's all about appearance.

I despise pick guards, and the look of tort makes me nauseous, but thousands of players love it. It has no affect on tone or playability - strictly appearance.

Unless your belly is big enough to use as a tray table, a lined fingerboard is pretty much hidden from your eyes when you're standing on stage and playing. Side dots are far more useful in that situation.

As an occasional upright player, I know where the heel is, and any other small dent or mark along the neck where my thumb sits is used to mark my position during shifts.

Whether we realize it or not, we all use different visual or tactile cues when shifting positions. But the fingerboard lines are probably the least useful of all of them.

 

[ptg]

1) are you a regular fretless electric bassist? - Yes

2) does the fingerboard or top edge of your favored fretless bass have lines, or is it fully unlined? - Unlined

3) all other things equal, if you bought your next fretless bass from a brand that offered the choice of either a Lined or Unlined fretless neck, which would you purchase? - Unlined

4) if you only had the one choice (as with Godin) of your less favored fingerboard preference, from your favored fretless bass brand, would you buy one? - No

5) Please describe your view on this subject? - To each his/her own - I don't care for lined fretless basses

 

[nostatic]

There's a lot of false conclusions that are being jumped to here.

-snip-

This subject comes up here usually a couple times a year. It's unfortunate that the same dogmas don't ever seem to subside.

As someone who is involved in developing training systems, I can tell you that my conclusions are based on our understanding of human perception, studies we've run, and experience in the field. While there isn't a direct one-to-one correspondence, humans tend to be humans.

That doesn't mean that lined is "bad" or that people can't play well with a lined board. For *me* it is "bad", and humans, given a choice of senses, will often bias visual cues, sometimes to their detriment.

Your last test about unlined should be better players isn't a good indicator since we don't usually hear the ones that really suck and give up in frustration

I don't have much dogma when it comes to human training - there are tendencies and probabilities, the rest, as you say, is up to the individual.

 

[MVE]

Is the blindfold lined or unlined? Solid or hollow body? Does it (the blindfold) produce a nice mwah?

I've been using a refrigerated gel mask that also helps with bags under eyes and headaches, which is appropriate as the excercise causes....headaches.
Tone wise, I would definitely say it exaggerates the mwah or just wah or ahhooohhwhaa as I keep sliding my fingers around trying to find the right notes.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

As someone who is involved in developing training systems, I can tell you that my conclusions are based on our understanding of human perception, studies we've run, and experience in the field. While there isn't a direct one-to-one correspondence, humans tend to be humans.

That doesn't mean that lined is "bad" or that people can't play well with a lined board. For *me* it is "bad", and humans, given a choice of senses, will often bias visual cues, sometimes to their detriment.

But as we've pointed out, you are using visual cues. You look at side dots, or the neck, or your hands. Consciously or not, you're doing the exact same thing as a lined player. You're not playing and didn't learn completely blind, and there aren't a bunch of blind fretless players outdoing Willis and Jaco.

Your last test about unlined should be better players isn't a good indicator since we don't usually hear the ones that really suck and give up in frustration

Except that if your assertations were valid, we would see it amongst those that didn't give up. But we don't.

The problem is you've come to a conclusion ("lines on the fingerboard are an impediment") but you neither have evidence to back it up nor reliable proofs of the conclusion. There's no end results to qualify the conclusion- there aren't swathes of unlined players who are more skilled per capital than lined players, nor is there just a small amount of unlined players but their skill level exceeds their peers. This isn't the case at all though, and looking at the numbers a case could be made that the opposite is true. There's no evidence to lead to that conclusion either- there's nothing showing unlined players aren't learning faster and more effectively than lined players. And all the studies on hand eye coordination directly oppose your idea that adding visual learning to the equation will strengthen the process.

There's nothing wrong with using an unlined, and those that want to end up using one should forgo lines completely and start on an unlined. And they certainly look cooler. But there's no evidence whatsoever that there's any detrimental outcome from using lines; it's an oft repeated stigma around here and there's no reason for it.