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Fretless: Lines or No Lines?? Which is Least Annoying??

Lines or No Lines, that is the question!

  • Lines

    Votes: 68 44.2%

  • No Lines

    Votes: 86 55.8%
  • Total voters
    154
#41
Originally posted by Joe Nerve
hot digitty dog! i've got the new bass in my hands now, and i love it. and i'm a hard guy to please.

the side markers are in the same position they'd be on a regular bass, but i don't see any problem with this - perhaps because i've never owned an unlined fretless? on the neck the dots where the frets would be. seems rather helpful actually - i have 2 different points of reference. if i ever go to play someone else's unlined fretless i guess i might have to adjust my playing.

curious: ALL unlined fretless basses have the 3-5-7-9-12 marks directly where the fret would be????
Click to expand...

I don't know if all, but all the ones I've played have. Otherwise, if the fretboard is completely blank, the side dots are almost useless as they're not pointing out where you would need to put your fingers to properly intonate. You'd have to get used to putting your fingers to the right of the dots, and judging how far to the right is much more difficult (especially when looking at the top or bottom of the neck where the perspective would skew your visual judgement) than seeing a single dot telling you almost exactly where to put your fingers.
 
#44
Originally posted by Joe Nerve
i wonder now if all lined basses have the dots where they'd be on a fretted bass. my yamaha did, same as the michael kelly.
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If it's from a big manufactureer, they tend to be in the same place as on a fretted, at least IME. I guess they figure with the lines, you don't need the side dots for intonation purposes, although I'm not sure if they take into account that a lot of players look at the side dots without looking at the lines fairly often when playing.
 
#45
I prefer a lined board for my fretless, it is just easier for me to play in tune. In order to play in tune you have to fret right on the line, not in between or slightly behind the fretline as has been stated earlier in the post. Also, the side dots on a defretted bass and side dots on an unlined fretless will often not be in the same position so I could see how it would be confusing switching from an unlined fretless to a lined fretless (assuming it was a defret as is mine).
 
#46
Originally posted by KeithPas
I prefer a lined board for my fretless, it is just easier for me to play in tune. In order to play in tune you have to fret right on the line, not in between or slightly behind the fretline as has been stated earlier in the post. Also, the side dots on a defretted bass and side dots on an unlined fretless will often not be in the same position so I could see how it would be confusing switching from an unlined fretless to a lined fretless (assuming it was a defret as is mine).
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The "fretting right on the line" isn't true most of the time. The line is where the breaking point should be for the note, so your finger would have to end in a point for you to get the exact note when centered over the line. When you press your fingertip against the fretboard, it flattens out, and the right edge of the fingertip becomes the spot that should be directly over the line as it's the last bit of finger that acts as a breaking point, so the center of your finger should be just behind the line. Of course, this is all relevant to how your bass is set up. You can adjust it so the note will be before, right on, or after the line, although it will throw off how accurate the other lines will be.
 
#48
I don't really know all of the theory behind where one should play ie. on the line or somewhere close to the line etc. I do know what my ears hear and playing directly over the lines on my fretless (a defret) always gives me good accurate intonation. That is not to say that this is always the case, it is just my personal experience.
 
#50
I've solved the parallax problem for good.

The bass is mounted on a sliding bed, my fretting hand is always directly in front of my eyes so I see the fret lines side-on. The whole bass slides left or right if I have to shift position on the neck. The right hand goes through an accordion style leather strap that I have bolted to the bass' face, so I can shift the bass sideways with my right arm while plucking the strings.

Only drawback is I can't really play fast runs yet. Oh, and also the severe tendonitis I've developed in my fretting hand. Come to think of it, the shoulder straps for the contraption are killing me too...

:D
 
#52
Originally posted by Bryan R. Tyler


The "fretting right on the line" isn't true most of the time. The line is where the breaking point should be for the note, so your finger would have to end in a point for you to get the exact note when centered over the line. When you press your fingertip against the fretboard, it flattens out, and the right edge of the fingertip becomes the spot that should be directly over the line as it's the last bit of finger that acts as a breaking point, so the center of your finger should be just behind the line. Of course, this is all relevant to how your bass is set up. You can adjust it so the note will be before, right on, or after the line, although it will throw off how accurate the other lines will be.
Click to expand...

ok, i'm starting to like the "unlined"... :eek:
 
#53
Originally posted by mrcrowUK
if you want a fretless sound and dont have a fretless ear
have the lines
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Fretless ear???

So the tune starts with an EbMaj7 chord, voiced root, 5th, 10th, and the Maj 7th on top. How is my ear going to help me hit that right first time? It's not. Muscle memory will get me part of the way there. With lines, I'm on it straight away.

I know a few unlined fretless players who could consistently play chords and melodies in tune above the 12th fret. VERY few. I know quite a few lined fretless players who can. Probably 50 times as many... ;)

If you really want to play unlined fretless go right ahead. I've not heard you play, so I can't tell whether your intonation would be good enough were I the one making the decisions in your band. But as I've said here many times before, the overwhelming anecodotal evidence is for lined fretless players being consistently more in tune than unlined fretless players...

cheers

Steve
www.stevelawson.net
 
#54
I think this is all a matter of how you see your instrument. When you want to be as melodic and free as an unlined fretless, just set your mind to it, and it's done.
I am able to get a good fretless sound and feel from my fretted bass, so why shouldn't I be able to do it with a lined fretless?
In my opinion, it helps play in tune, and it is easier to focus on rythm and the rest of the band instead of always wondering if you are in tune.
Just my opinion...
 
#55
I'd go for a lined fretless-but practice not looking at my hands! Otherwise, it's real annoying to have to constantly look at the fingerboard.
when I need some guidance on a big jump or something, the lines are real helpful, otherwise, i ignore them and use my ears.
 
#57
Originally posted by Fetch Da bass
no lines here, never! ever! use your ears to play and use the side dots if you have to. it's not rocket science! :bassist:
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How do you fret a bass with your ears?

Seriously though, I believe it has a heck of a lot more to do with muscle memory than your ears. Your ears can teach you where to put your muscles in practice, but if you're not looking at the neck, then it's really the muscle memory that's doing the work. At least if you're playing in tune it is. And muscle memory can be achieved with or without lines.
 
#58
Originally posted by Bryan R. Tyler


The "fretting right on the line" isn't true most of the time. The line is where the breaking point should be for the note, so your finger would have to end in a point for you to get the exact note when centered over the line. When you press your fingertip against the fretboard, it flattens out, and the right edge of the fingertip becomes the spot that should be directly over the line as it's the last bit of finger that acts as a breaking point, so the center of your finger should be just behind the line.
Click to expand...

Yes. The edge of your fingertip is what determines your exact pitch, because that exact point is where the string is being divided. The rule of thumb I've heard, and what I go by:

Toward the end of the neck: You can play on the line. You can also be slightly off, there is more slop here, because the end of the neck is more forgiving.

12th "fret": Directly behind the line, edge of fingertip right at the line.

Higher positions: Basically the same as 12th fret, but by this point your finger (depending on how fat or thin your finger is) is basically centered between the fret lines.

And as others have said, yes, you can't rely 100% on the lines, they are merely a guide. You still have to listen to judge your intonation. You don't have to listen as carefully at the end of the neck of course, but you still need to be paying attention.
 
#59
If we apply Lawson's logic here then very few violinists,cellists, violists, and double bassists play in tune above the "12th fret."

I disagree with that sentiment. Apparently Steve has heard a bevy of bass players that should stick to fretted because they are not musically mature enough and their hearing is not well enough developed to play in tune.

If you are a good musician with good ears you should have no problem playing a fretless instrument of any sort as long as you practice.

I play double bass as well, symphonic and other and play in tune not only above the "12th fret" but beyond the edge of the fingerboard.

What Rubbish !!!!!

whoever referenced "fretless ears" was spot on with the sentiment but used a different term for "developed hearing.


Bottom line IMO is that you shouldn't play fretless if you cannot hear properly what you are playing.

Do you know your intervals ? Can you sing them ? How do you know if you are in tune if you do knot know what a major third sounds like ? And don't tell me about Just Intonation...

you need to be musically literate , you need to "know" what you are hearing when you play.

When playing fretted it is not necessary to listen to your intoantion; it is taken care of for you - you just need to make sure your bass is in tune.

Please...:rolleyes:
 
#60
Originally posted by DonZ
If we apply Lawson's logic here then very few violinists,cellists, violists, and double bassists play in tune above the "12th fret."

I disagree with that sentiment. Apparently Steve has heard a bevy of bass players that should stick to fretted because they are not musically mature enough and their hearing is not well enough developed to play in tune.
Click to expand...

Well, Don, it depends how you define 'in tune' - what is in tune enough. Every classical string player that I know struggles to some degree with intonation. Almost all of the 'Grade 8' violinists that I know don't have particularly consistent intonation up the top of the neck. Violin is an insanely difficult instrument to develop real control over.

However, on classical string instruments, your body position, the shape of the instrument and often the figuring in the wood give you some indications of where certain notes are. You muscle memory does the rest. Most classical players that I know adopt exactly the same playing position each time they play. That's not true of the electric bassists that I know. Given that many of the different approaches to playing bass require different playing positions, and unlike violins, violas and cellos, the shape of the instrument varies hugely from one make to another. If you've got two different basses of different makes, then you may end up with two different sets of egonomic conditions (not sure if that's a real phrase but still, it'll do for now... ;) ).

Most of the classical string players I know (so therefor this is anecdotal evidence, but probably vaguely accurate, at least for string players in the UK) spend a heck of a lot of time working on their intonation. They have to, to develop the muscle memory. Same goes for the electric bassists that I know who play unlined fretless instruments. I'd humbly suggest that I can get to a similar level of intonation accuracy a lot quicker by using my muscle memory, my ears and my eyes, using the reference of the lines. the wood on the fingerboard of my bass isn't particularly figured, so I can't use lines in the grain for reference. It's got dots along the side, but they tend to disappear in low light (I suppose I could get LEDs fitted...) So I wouldn't have much in the way of reference points to get my hands in place before I start. So I have lines. Lines that act as a guide, lines that I can learn to play ahead of or behind. All that matters is what comes out of the speakers, ultimately (or off the soundboard if you're playing acoustically... ;) )

Again, this is all based on my own experience and on my observations of fellow pros, students and players that I've watched - the ones who used lines were more consistently in tune. If the way you conceive of your music requires you to play an unmarked instrument and to put in the extra practice required to play without lines, that's great. As for me, I'm going to get lines on my Cello as soon as I get round to it as well... I see no advantage in not having them, and plenty of situations where they would prove very useful.

cheers

Steve
www.stevelawson.net
 

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