From "Player" to "Musician"

[Sneakyfish]

I'm not envisioning the OP as working through musical concepts on a sheet of staff paper with a pencil.

Fair enough but neither am I. It's not my intention to send the OP down the rabbit hole or anything. Neither am I suggesting that they abandon physical practice on the bass. On the contrary I believe that with some additional theoretical knowledge under their belt, the OP should shed as much as possible.

However, the OP is saying that they are comfortable enough with their proficiency on the instrument, they now want to learn some accompanying theory. Additionally they say that they want to make a transition from player to musician, which I think is the most important distinction.

For myself, I concluded the difference between the two is that a player is proficient in their instrument, while a musician has acquired theoretical concepts which apply to all instruments. I personally interpret musician to mean: somebody aware of music as a whole topic, not simply within the framework of their own instrument. This is so they can deal in concrete terms with themselves or other musicians playing other instruments. Especially the latter, if we all use the same vocabulary to communicate musical concepts, there is a greater potential for the exchange of information.

So it might be okay for them to put down the bass and pick up a book for a while? And split their time of course between research (mental practice) and actual physical practice.

I'm not saying become a professor of bonkers useless quantum-meclassical knowledge. I'm simply saying that basic theory is universal across all instruments and more useful in becoming a well rounded musician, who can converse comfortably on mainstream musical topics with another musician playing any instrument without feeling lost. Not simply a bass player. At least more useful than experience on just the bass.

For example, my knowledge of harmony applies when I play, by myself or with others, the bass, guitar, keyboard (badly, but that's a technique/time issue), and drums. Moreover my knowledge of theory applies to any sound which I can make! I hypothesise that experience limited to the bass probably won't stop this kind of development, but it might happen slower. And that it is the kind of development to which the OP refers.

Edit: I tune drums on the kit in descending 4th's or 5th's relative to the predominant key of the material. So harmony really does apply to the drums! lol

I really see acquiring a theoretical concept in the abstract then applying it to your instrument in a practical fashion as adding an unnecessary, inefficient step.

On face value I'm inclined to agree. It does seem counter-intuitive, kind of like putting your sword away when learning how to fight, right? But the angle I'm viewing this from leads me to believe that it is simultaneously an efficient and necessary step for musical growth. All you have to lose is time. And it's not like I'm saying that they should do something harmful, I am encouraging them to expand and learn more about music. Is that of itself wrong?

Idk, those are my thoughts on it so far...

 

[4001]

I'd like to move from being a "player" to a "musician" which, to me, means understanding what I'm playing and why it works. Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

I've been playing bass and guitar for about 35 years, mostly rock. I grew up learning songs by ear, then supplemented by tab when it became readily accessible (and they really should vet those before allowing Joe Public to post 'em...some are just plain terrible). Through this I've found shapes and patterns to speed up the learning process and taken what was pleasing to my ears to write lines.

I'm considering ponying up for Scott's Bass Lessons, but am open to your advice based on experience.

Thanks, in advance, for your kind counsel and suggestions.

JEFF BERLIN

 

[MrLenny1]

A few lessons with a good teacher would help to
point out issues in your playing.
BTW Scott's BASS Lessons really helped me.

 

[srcTW]

This book works well by Bert Ligon IMO.

For me what I am doing is (as a 45 y/o "new bassist" having played for just under five years):

I became the bassist in the local community college jazz ensemble and am taking private lessons w the school's adjunct professor bassist (as if I were a music major). The ensemble gives me sight reading in a huge way and mandates strong technique and hold me accountable to 18 or so really good musicians. My teacher then runs me through the fingerboard, theory, exercises, etudes, riffs, scales, intervals, etc that than apply to the ensemble. Part of what my teacher uses is that book referenced above.

Anyway I kind of figured doing this was the only way I'd become a credible "musician" and hopefully in a year or so I'll be there. YMMV.

 

[alexgeddy]

I had to block his forum from my feed. I have much better things to be doing with my time.

I just blocked him lol. He had problems here before and recently had them in a forum bass players united... least I know his opinion on metronomes

 

[IamGroot]

Has anyone mentioned ear training yet? I know a few guys that can read and know zero theory but can zoom in on their part like a guided missile. Glen Campbell was an example of this. If your ear is not that great, then better learn to read and understand theory to make up for the shortfall.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

When studying matters of theory like intervals, scales, chord construction based on scalar forms, cadences, harmonising, reharmonising, cycle of 5th's etc. PUT THE BASS DOWN!!

For subjects like these, work with pen and paper until you can write down everything you know without referencing from your learning material. Take yourself back to school. This, to me, is theoretical study. It only works when you put the bass down because otherwise, like me, you'll just end up noodling on what you already have because it's too much fun!

Pen & paper is always good. In addition, consider getting a decent used keyboard w weighted keys. Your muscles have to work differently, so you won't fall back into comfortable patterns. & piano is a solid foundation to learn Music.

 

[bwoodman]

I will recommend Scotts Bass Academy.

Huge amount of value for the money. Just don't let yourself get overwhelmed by what's there. Because there's a huge amount of stuff available and it's easy to get distracted. Make a personal development plan and stick to it.

Another good vid guy (who I think is now doing some stuff with Scott's) is Adam Neeley. He's refreshingly focused and not too chatty (hear me Scott?) and has his own channel on YT well worth subscribing to IMO. (Probably because so much of what he says is in sync with with my own pet theories about bass playing. )

Here's a sample:

Adam Neeley's vids are excellent!

 

[dreamadream99]

The only avenue I know of that successfully cranks out thousands of musicians every year, are accredited university music degree programs. So, if you want to know what constitutes a musician, look at any University music course catalog under degree requirements. You will find components of:

Ensembles
Private lessons
Aural skills
Music Theory
Music History
Piano
Analysis
Composition / orchestration / arranging
Recitals and performances

 

[glocke1]

I'd like to move from being a "player" to a "musician" which, to me, means understanding what I'm playing and why it works. Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

I've been playing bass and guitar for about 35 years, mostly rock. I grew up learning songs by ear, then supplemented by tab when it became readily accessible (and they really should vet those before allowing Joe Public to post 'em...some are just plain terrible). Through this I've found shapes and patterns to speed up the learning process and taken what was pleasing to my ears to write lines.

I'm considering ponying up for Scott's Bass Lessons, but am open to your advice based on experience.

Thanks, in advance, for your kind counsel and suggestions.

Not much different than you. Almost the same amount of time playing, largely learned songs by ear but turned my nose down at tab just because I found so much of it too be incorrect (changed that view recently due to time constraints, I still think a lot of it is incorrect but it's helpful to point me in the right direction).

SBL's is a good site, I signed up for one year and while I think there is some benefit to it and would encourage anyone to sign up, it does have it's limitations.

Honestly if you want to achieve what you state in your O.P., find a good teacher with a strong background in jazz and music theory, meaning someone who studied that stuff in school, and plays it for a living. I've taken lessons from and studied under guys like that from time to time, but sadly none of it really stuck due to a lack of opportunity to play it.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I'd like to move from being a "player" to a "musician" which, to me, means understanding what I'm playing and why it works. Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

I've been playing bass and guitar for about 35 years, mostly rock. I grew up learning songs by ear, then supplemented by tab when it became readily accessible (and they really should vet those before allowing Joe Public to post 'em...some are just plain terrible). Through this I've found shapes and patterns to speed up the learning process and taken what was pleasing to my ears to write lines.

I'm considering ponying up for Scott's Bass Lessons, but am open to your advice based on experience.

Thanks, in advance, for your kind counsel and suggestions.

As said by Sneakyfish, put the bass down.

You do not learn music on the instrument you play, you represent it on it.

The worst thing is to try and learn music for a specific instrument, the instruments design will inhibit you in application and also maybe in the physcal effort to play it....pen and paper does not.

I, like many, came to bass via orchestral music training....regardless of instrument, we all got the same musical theory education.....no one instrument got its own system (Like Tab) we all got the same teachings. So when we talked about a piece or a score everyone could related to what was being said.
Everyone could read each other parts, even though we could not play it on the instrument it was scored for.
The physicality and technique of the instrument has to be known...can i play trombone part of a trombone? Nope...but i can play it on a bass, or any three valve brass instrument that relates to a Tenor Horn...but not on the trombone.

The thing is you already know how to play...what you want to know is what to play, or more specifically, read what to play.
In rock or blues reading is not a skill that is needed to learn, your ears will teach you what to play.
Reading may however be a good thing to help you remember what you have to play.

So learn S/N and chrods sheets, and TAB (its cool as well) and here is a cool thing, when i read TAB i do not see the numbers, i see the notes the represent.
Sure that i read the number but i see the note. So if i read A3 to D5, i see C up to G, i also see a V interval.
If i then read a G5 to follow, i go up to C, but now i see a 1V interval...without thinking about it.

So i would go with finding a music teacher and learn music.....you will be surprised how much you actually know but do not recognise...and that makes learning easy when you have experience to relate it to.

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

I'd like to move from being a "player" to a "musician" which, to me, means understanding what I'm playing and why it works. Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

I've been playing bass and guitar for about 35 years, mostly rock. I grew up learning songs by ear, then supplemented by tab when it became readily accessible (and they really should vet those before allowing Joe Public to post 'em...some are just plain terrible). Through this I've found shapes and patterns to speed up the learning process and taken what was pleasing to my ears to write lines.

I'm considering ponying up for Scott's Bass Lessons, but am open to your advice based on experience.

Thanks, in advance, for your kind counsel and suggestions.

I think Scott is proponent of shapes and "pattens" patterns a should be able to tie the theory and notes together for you. Let us know how it works out if you use him.

 

[brianrost]

Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

Buy, borrow or steal some sheet music...any sheet music...and start playing the melodies of songs you don't already know how to play, regardless of style. You don't have to play fast, my sight reading is poor at full tempo so I just play slowly. If the sheet has chord symbols, sit down and match up the melody notes with the chord tones. Remember, melody always comes first and dictates the chords. Then try creating bass lines to go with the melody. For extra credit, transpose the melody into the remaining 11 keys and write out the new chords in each key.

As far as internalizing...it can be (many) months before what you have studied gets into your fingers on the bandstand. It always is for me.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I'd like to move from being a "player" to a "musician" which, to me, means understanding what I'm playing and why it works. Every time I've tried to dip my toes into the waters of musical notation, theory, scales, modes, etc., I find that my hands just end up going back to memorized patterns and I'm not internalizing the knowledge.

I've been playing bass and guitar for about 35 years, mostly rock. I grew up learning songs by ear, then supplemented by tab when it became readily accessible (and they really should vet those before allowing Joe Public to post 'em...some are just plain terrible). Through this I've found shapes and patterns to speed up the learning process and taken what was pleasing to my ears to write lines.

I'm considering ponying up for Scott's Bass Lessons, but am open to your advice based on experience.

Thanks, in advance, for your kind counsel and suggestions.

My advice is beginners can easily be overwhelmed by all there is you can learn. Focus on the basics.
1 Learn to identify notes on the staff.

2 Learn basic subdivisions (whole note, half note, quarter note, 8th, 16th, and the dotted versions of each, rests , maybe triplets) it's very rare to see music using odd subdivisions like quintuplets and 32nd notes are used in music so stuff like that can confuse people at a stage where it's really not very useful to go that far anyways

3 if you understand the basic principles of a time signature they aren't that complicated. For example 4/4 = four quarter notes per measure. 3/4= 3 quarter notes per measure. 6/8 = six 8th notes per measure.

4 tempo is beats per minute. So 60 bpm is a beat every second. One trick I do is after years of hearing staying alive during my CPR classes at work I can hear the song in my head and I happen to know it's right at 100 bpm so I kind of use that as starting point for tempo

Just focus on that stuff initially and get it down. Dynamics, odd time signatures, odd subdivisions, Keys, modes and stuff will come more easily after you have a decent understanding of the basics. In fact if you can an identify the notes on the staff you can print out a picture of key signatures as a very useful cheat sheet for stuff like open mic jams where someone you're jamin with picks a key, peak at you're little cheat sheet and you'll instantly know what the sharps or flats are if there are any

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

I think I'm going LOVE this thread!!!! I will now shut up, listen and learn!!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Some cool replies on this thread, so i will add this, reading music does not involve any other skills other than reading what is written.
Reading music is nothing to do with harmony, melody, intervals etc....these are things you can recognize once you can read music....they are not pre-requisite to learning to read.

The only other skill is key sigs and notation markings to help you get the right notes.

So start reading scores in C major, then G major, then D, then A, then E, then B, then F#, then C#...so all the sharp keys.
The move to F major, then Bb, then Eb, then Ab, then Db, then Gb the Cb...so all the flat keys.

Cb and C# are optional as they seldom get used, but good practice in transposition as you are effectively a semitone down or up from C for all notes you read.

If you can already play then what you need to do is practice sight reading....once you get that under your belt you will already have all the notes you need to play in front of you...no thinking required...just play what you see.
Charts and chord sheets will require you to know your theory better in the way of chord construction, tempo and meters, as you get some info, but have to fill in the rest as you go.....S/N is play what you see...do not over think it, just play it.

So new music to read everyday, any clef any Key, the app SRmachine is a cool place to start if you have an Apple appliance

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As usual many other apps will be available but the trick is new reading everyday, so you learn to read what you see, not remember what you saw.

 

[AlexBassMP]

Victor Wooten's book is very revealing about that..

Do you think in terms of instrument or do you think on music as a whole?

Victor Wooten says "A writer doesn't say I'm a pencil writer or a typewriter writer"

I considere myself musician rather than player. Usually I think in arrangements, melodies and hen I try to play them.. For our next record I'm writing the piano part of one of the songs... I write lyrics, guitar parts, chord charts...

 

[saabfender]

Victor Wooten's book is very revealing about that..

Do you think in terms of instrument or do you think on music as a whole?

Victor Wooten says "A writer doesn't say I'm a pencil writer or a typewriter writer"

I considere myself musician rather than player. Usually I think in arrangements, melodies and hen I try to play them.. For our next record I'm writing the piano part of one of the songs... I write lyrics, guitar parts, chord charts...

Maybe not but a writer writes differently with a pencil than a typewriter and one mode will be his preferred method. It seems analogous to play 4-string versus 5-string. Saying "put the bass down and just learn music from a book" is like "speak into a tape recorder to compose your story rather than writing it down." This is also illusory because it is still an instrument that you are using and will require mastery. You'll also need to transcribe it with something. That's not without merit but, as I pointed out before, is an extra step.

I can't quite put my finger on it but this somehow speaks to the illusion of multitasking. Multitasking is not something human brains can do. You can switch mental tasks very quickly, giving the effect of being able perform multiple functions simultaneously but we all only have one CPU.

Anybody who tries to maintain their playing multiple instruments knows this sad fact: concentrate on one and the others suffer (Adam Neely mentioned this on a film I watched last night - come to think of it, Dave Grohl said something about this also). It's so difficult to maintain proficiency on several instrument or musical tasks.

I love being able to perform multiple musical tasks. It's one my identifying features as a person. As long as I have been doing this, I don't think you are less of a musician because you internalize music through a single, monophonic instrument.

Reading the last paragraph, I realize distinction of "player vs. musician" is part of the false narrative often used to run down bass players. "Oh, he's just the bass player and not a real musician like a guitarist or pianist. Probably only knows the songs 'cause the guitar player learned him his parts." Don't buy into it. It's not doing any of us any favors.

Bass player = musician

 

[mmon77]

Reading the last paragraph, I realize distinction of "player vs. musician" is part of the false narrative often used to run down bass players. "Oh, he's just the bass player and not a real musician like a guitarist or pianist. Probably only knows the songs 'cause the guitar player learned him his parts." Don't buy into it. It's not doing any of us any favors.

Having recently switched to bass from guitar, I can say without hesitation that the bass players I know are far more musically literate than guitarists.

 

[el murdoque]

Put the bass down and start learning the piano.

There is bass on the piano, plus this instrument forces you to learn both notations.
The problem is that you can play the bass already, so learning the basics is a real pain because your technical abilities exceed your knowledge and playing scales is just boring. It takes a lot of effort and sheer willpower to overcome that.