Yes, they are definitely in the scale. But in the vernacular we would not refer to them as scale tones, which means runs of notes in scale order. "Chordal tones" would be a better way to describe what I mean.
At least, that's the way I learned it.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Frustrated on how to apply improv knowledge!!!!
- Thread starter Johnny StingRay
- Start date
At least, that's the way I learned it.
So you have 1. study, study studied. Next: 2. Practice, practice, practice. 3. Listen to the greats. 4. Take an incremental approach. 5. Take your time/slow down. Repeat
When I was learning to solo I played through the Real Book a lot with a metronome. I would start my sessions by playing the bass line to get the changes in my head. After playing through the changes awhile I would start playing more and more melodically. When I came to measures where I didn't know what to do, I would slow things down and use theory to figure out what is going on in. I might play over a four bar phrase or even the entire form at a really slow speed over and over, each time starting on a different chord tone or extension, so that I heard the possibilities in my head rather than thinking about them. Once things are figured out slowly speed back up to performance tempo.
When I am actually soloing, most of it is by ear, and I fall back on the theory when my ears get lost. After you do this for awhile you find that your soloistic ideas transfer across similar structures in different songs. This allows you to solo extemporaneously over harmonic structures you understand. But from time to time you will be presented harmonic structures you don't understand. When this happens, go to step 1 and repeat the process until you are competent.
Start writing / producing full songs, it'll make you a much better musician.
I discussed this with Alain Caron during a masterclass. His answer was to be conscious of your playing and know exactly where you are and what you're doing at all moments. Key, scale, degree, note, chord. Then after a few years doing it on all tunes even the most simple, it supposedly becomes 2nd nature.
It sounds like a tremendous work and it is, at first at least. I don't do it most of the time but I have this approach for specific tunes I really want to master. I learn them inside out and put a lot of work into knowing exactly how and why I'd play a note. It really pays.
It sounds like a tremendous work and it is, at first at least. I don't do it most of the time but I have this approach for specific tunes I really want to master. I learn them inside out and put a lot of work into knowing exactly how and why I'd play a note. It really pays.
At one point I felt similarly. I agree with the folks that said that you've developed your intellectual understanding but need to develop your aural understanding because improv is an aural art. Actually, music is an aural art so regardless of genre...
6 things helped me and I no longer consider soloing a weakness for me:
1) Learn tunes ala Fugua's method or something similar - there are other similar methods
2) memorize the melody - ideally in different ranges of the instrument
3) memorize the changes
4) play the tune in many different keys, in 2, in 4
5) sing the melody while playing the bass line; play the melody while singing the bass line; accompany yourself as you play the melody
6) sing solos on the changes before you try them on the bass
Recently, I'd add another: play the changes on the piano and sing the melody.
Essentially, if you can't hear it in your mind's ear, you're typing (playing automatically/intellectually and without intent).
6 things helped me and I no longer consider soloing a weakness for me:
1) Learn tunes ala Fugua's method or something similar - there are other similar methods
2) memorize the melody - ideally in different ranges of the instrument
3) memorize the changes
4) play the tune in many different keys, in 2, in 4
5) sing the melody while playing the bass line; play the melody while singing the bass line; accompany yourself as you play the melody
6) sing solos on the changes before you try them on the bass
Recently, I'd add another: play the changes on the piano and sing the melody.
Essentially, if you can't hear it in your mind's ear, you're typing (playing automatically/intellectually and without intent).
Ah, forgot that one: composing solos helped me a lot too. I still do it; bass lines as well.
I went to one of Alain's Master class and I was shocked by this concept... While I have infinite respect for his musicianship and teachings I thought that this "real time" harmonic analysis was going to "computarize" my playing... I did feel that by following this path I was going to loose the groove of my solos. A few years since have passed and I've became familiar with the 12 tone rows serialism technique and how every note relates to every other one, and which "color" each interval does and is an incredible concept, particulary when you want to break out of tonal/diatonic sounding solos. Alain was right all along, probably something he picked up when he studied with Charlie Banacos.
About the OP's question, nothing better than being fully in control of the melody you want to produce, and not fall into "technicall driven finger impulses" instead of the true melody playing in your head. If you are concious that there is a difference between your playing and what you imagine that it should get out, the point is to work on bringing it out more efficiently. The idea of singing over a chord sequence and then playing is great. I would also try playing every single melody you hear (that's what Django Reinhardt dad told him to do)... That will exercise your hability to go faster from brain to fingers.
I hope these help.
Do you have a looping device? if not, get one. Experimenting with a looper helped me develop melodic parts over song parts that eventually turned into solos. A solo can be built on top of two chords. After a while turn two chords to 5 chords, and add some changes. before long you will have full blown compositions.
Here is my humorous attempt to "solo"/"improvise" by using the notes not from the scale for entertainment purpose only.
A two chord progression: Gmaj7 | Ab13 | - I recorded a bass-line and an "a la rhythm guitar" with my Jazz Bass with the help of Presonus Studio Artist.
My beginner's "soloing" was by using ONLY the notes from the C major scale (with just ONE passing/chromatic note.)
Last edited:
i learned my Jazz stuff on the piano ... translating some of that to other instruments helps ... also play bass , gtr , trumpet , vocals ...
i heard someone say it helped to listen and follow along / learn licks / lines from a different instrument ... i listen to lots of sax and tried learn some sax type lines of the bass ... melodic lines and inflections ... we know the notes we should be playing for a certain key / chord / tune ... we know various scales ... but i try to play a improvised melody of all the previously mentioned stuff ... lots of trial and error ( home alone ) ... play bits of the melody , theme and variation ... keep it fairly simple and melodic ... i gave up showing off how fast or how many notes can i get in , or trying to be technically cute , .. and i'm try to let simpler ideas ' speak ' .... limit the amount of info so you can just let yourself ' play ' ...
i have some of my noodling listed over in the Recording section ... some Xmas tunes ..
i heard someone say it helped to listen and follow along / learn licks / lines from a different instrument ... i listen to lots of sax and tried learn some sax type lines of the bass ... melodic lines and inflections ... we know the notes we should be playing for a certain key / chord / tune ... we know various scales ... but i try to play a improvised melody of all the previously mentioned stuff ... lots of trial and error ( home alone ) ... play bits of the melody , theme and variation ... keep it fairly simple and melodic ... i gave up showing off how fast or how many notes can i get in , or trying to be technically cute , .. and i'm try to let simpler ideas ' speak ' .... limit the amount of info so you can just let yourself ' play ' ...
i have some of my noodling listed over in the Recording section ... some Xmas tunes ..
Last edited:
I sing in my head (or sometimes out loud if I'm alone) what I want to play. And it comes out through my instrument. Sometimes it takes a try or two. But most times, if I can "hear" it, it just flows. The theory studies and practice sessions only get your ear and hands trained so they can identify and find notes and patterns quickly and efficiently. But the music comes from inside you. And sometimes it's easy to fall into the trap of wanting to do it so "correctly" that you stop listening to the music because you're over analyzing everything.
The best advice I ever got was: "Learn to sing through your instrument." Maybe it's just playing a head game with yourself. But it worked for me. YMMV.
You might want to check out Vic Wooten's book The Music Lesson. It addresses exactly what you're finding frustration with. Why not scope it out at your local B&N and see if it looks good. If it does, consider reading it.
Luck!
The best advice I ever got was: "Learn to sing through your instrument." Maybe it's just playing a head game with yourself. But it worked for me. YMMV.
You might want to check out Vic Wooten's book The Music Lesson. It addresses exactly what you're finding frustration with. Why not scope it out at your local B&N and see if it looks good. If it does, consider reading it.
Luck!
Guys here have already stated a ton of what you need to do. To ADD on to what is here: get you some lead lines. That could simplify your playing. Isolate one note per chord that will create a melodic line through the changes. Then embellish in between those notes. Over a ii V, one of the most used lead lines is the minor 7th of the ii to the 3rd of the V to the maj7 of the Root. You can also do 5, b9, 5 or 9, #5, 9....use the lead line as the guide for your improv lines and it may help you to simplify.
This is the best video I can find on the subject:
You cannot think when improvising (or maybe you can, but only very little). Most all of your mind will be taken up with listening. I think you need to play very simply and build up little melodies organically.
All that theory is important, but only for practicing. It is impossible to use it when improvising.
You cannot think when improvising (or maybe you can, but only very little). Most all of your mind will be taken up with listening. I think you need to play very simply and build up little melodies organically.
All that theory is important, but only for practicing. It is impossible to use it when improvising.
Wow! Thank you everyone!!! As always, Talkbass members are incredibly supportive and caring about each other. Your advice is greatly appreciated and I know what I've learned from all of you will help me become a better bassist. I am going to use Ed Fuqua's technique (Thankyou, Ed!!! It was awesome to see your response! Very cool!) to begin with and then incorporate the advice from everyone who posted. I'm very excited about this new path..........a great reason to be up at 6:30AM on a Saturday!!!! Again, THANK YOU everyone for your advice. You are awesome!
It's your ears! You can study all the theory in the world but if you can't internalize it in your ear to hear when you are in key or not, it ain't going to happen.
As others have said you also have to know the standard jazz progressions inside and out.
As others have said you also have to know the standard jazz progressions inside and out.
It is such a long journey. I few things that I have realized over the years that has helped me out. (I am by no means any good)
The Charlie Parker quote is very good but gets thrown around with only a surface understanding by most in the beginning. You have to learn all the stuff and forget it. The hard part is that it takes years and a tremendous amount of work. When I was studying jazz in college many years ago, me and the guys in college were very against the learning lick thing. We were like "makes you sound sterile man, that cat is just linking together licks, he has no voice, etc" You know how that goes. The problem is unless you are truly a creative genius, which I most definitely am not, you are skipping a very important step and what Parker was getting at. You have to imitate first. Yes, you will sound very sterile and contrived at first, probably for years. But eventually all of that is in your head and the pieces come out subconsciously, eventually in your own personal voice. If it never get there it can never come out in your playing. I kick myself for not going through this stage years ago. Take a lick you like over a ii-V or something, plug it in every ii-V in the song you are working on and every other song you are playing. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat...
I know I have, but I think most get to a point where you do know and understand a huge amount of theory and it becomes a huge weight. You paralyze yourself by trying to play what is theoretical instead of making music. It's like you scare yourself from trying something new because you don't want to play a wrong note. I'm probably still in this stage as well but I can remember the exact moment I became aware of this. I was filling in with a cover band years ago and we were playing some RnB tunes I didn't know. Band leader looked at me and said take a ride. I had no choice but to go. I didn't really know the progression. I had to use my ear and react to what I heard. You know what, it was pretty good and very liberating. Like when you are fist learning how to play and you are just whaling away and it feels so good. I think recording yourself singing over some changes and then transcribing it helps break out of this. And you have the added bonus of knowing what you sing is definitely going to be your personal voice.
To me the culmination of all of this is when you are singing a solo in your head but it comes out instantly on your instrument and you can play it instantly. All that theory stuff and drill on your instrument has finally paid off and you have done the second part of the Parker quote, forget that poopie and play.
Edit...I'm still not there!
The Charlie Parker quote is very good but gets thrown around with only a surface understanding by most in the beginning. You have to learn all the stuff and forget it. The hard part is that it takes years and a tremendous amount of work. When I was studying jazz in college many years ago, me and the guys in college were very against the learning lick thing. We were like "makes you sound sterile man, that cat is just linking together licks, he has no voice, etc" You know how that goes. The problem is unless you are truly a creative genius, which I most definitely am not, you are skipping a very important step and what Parker was getting at. You have to imitate first. Yes, you will sound very sterile and contrived at first, probably for years. But eventually all of that is in your head and the pieces come out subconsciously, eventually in your own personal voice. If it never get there it can never come out in your playing. I kick myself for not going through this stage years ago. Take a lick you like over a ii-V or something, plug it in every ii-V in the song you are working on and every other song you are playing. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat...
I know I have, but I think most get to a point where you do know and understand a huge amount of theory and it becomes a huge weight. You paralyze yourself by trying to play what is theoretical instead of making music. It's like you scare yourself from trying something new because you don't want to play a wrong note. I'm probably still in this stage as well but I can remember the exact moment I became aware of this. I was filling in with a cover band years ago and we were playing some RnB tunes I didn't know. Band leader looked at me and said take a ride. I had no choice but to go. I didn't really know the progression. I had to use my ear and react to what I heard. You know what, it was pretty good and very liberating. Like when you are fist learning how to play and you are just whaling away and it feels so good. I think recording yourself singing over some changes and then transcribing it helps break out of this. And you have the added bonus of knowing what you sing is definitely going to be your personal voice.
To me the culmination of all of this is when you are singing a solo in your head but it comes out instantly on your instrument and you can play it instantly. All that theory stuff and drill on your instrument has finally paid off and you have done the second part of the Parker quote, forget that poopie and play.
Edit...I'm still not there!
That's sounds pretty darn good to me.
[This invalid link has been removed]
[This invalid link has been removed]
