Frustrated on how to apply improv knowledge!!!!

[Liam Wald]

For me, learning scales, arpeggios, intervals and modes was really just about developing the muscle memory and vocabulary required to "play music".
Years of repetition creates the muscle memory needed to give you the ability to use these tools without thinking about what they are, how they fit, and where they belong. Then the whole thing comes down to "knowing the song". I mean really knowing the song. Knowing it well enough to sing it or "play the record in you head" and then letting intuition and training take over.
If you know the song, you know where the progression is going to go.
If you know intervals, you know how to get to the next point in the progression.
If you know scales and arpeggios, you know what is going to fit and how to apply it.
If you can sing the song and have a very good sense of the melody/harmony you can build your improv from there.
If you don't know the melody/harmony and approach from just the perspective of the chord structure of the song, your solos will simply sound like a bunch of scales played over chords. Scales are not melodic. Good solos are.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[brianrost]

Ed F's links are required reading. I like this quote in particular from Joe Solomon:

But in the end, what you know is not as important as how and to what level you have absorbed it. An improvisor’s knowledge of the musical language, in a sense, cannot be theoretical. It must be practical. That is, one’s theory must be in one’s fingers and ears, not in one’s head.

 

[azureblue]

AFter I got out music school, my bass teacher had me over for one more lesson: "OK,now forget everything you have learned and just play."

A few solo concepts I learned from him: #1 learn the melody, and be ready to quote pieces of it in your solo. #2 Sing your solo,before you play it. Then play it." #3 - space is your friend. #4 - fer gawd's sake don't run scales. Ever."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If you don't know the melody/harmony and approach from just the perspective of the chord structure of the song, your solos will simply sound like a bunch of scales played over chords. Scales are not melodic. Good solos are.

I'm confused.
I DON'T know the melody. There is NO MELODY.
I just record a rhythmic backup of one or two chords and try to improvise just by HEARING the SOUNDS of the rhythmic/harmonic backup and my "soloing" note/s and PHRASES (the longer the better).

 

[JEBassman]

I'm confused.
I DON'T know the melody. There is NO MELODY.
I just record a rhythmic backup of one or two chords and try to improvise just by HEARING the SOUNDS of the rhythmic/harmonic backup and my "soloing" note/s and PHRASES (the longer the better).

Then give yourself more to work with. If you don't have it already, get the Real Book. There are different editions. The 6th edition of the Hal Leonard Real Book, volume I is a great starting point. Some prefer the Sher Real Books but that's not the most important thing to focus on now.

Don't just record a couple chords of backing. Get some recordings of professional jazz musicians and play along, both bass line and melody. Work with those items, for a start. Take your time, and imitate what you hear, even if you might not be able to play the whole thing. Listen to how the lead player develops ideas, based on the melody and the chords that support it. Give yourself time.

Jamie Abersold's play along series is another great tool. The book/CD pairs are sold at jazzbooks.com.

 

[Liam Wald]

I'm confused.
I DON'T know the melody. There is NO MELODY.
I just record a rhythmic backup of one or two chords and try to improvise just by HEARING the SOUNDS of the rhythmic/harmonic backup and my "soloing" note/s and PHRASES (the longer the better).

No melody? Then that's the problem... and the opportunity
If there is no melody make one up and then start your improv based upon that.
If you do not have the ability to make up a melody, then that is what you need to work on.
You do this with conscious listening which is otherwise known as ear training.
Listen to and learn songs. Lots of songs.
The reason that Jazz improv is usually structured playing the "head" to set it up for improv is because it establishes the melody to base everything upon.
If you don't have a melody you have nothing to start with and build upon.

 

[JoeWPgh]

In the words of the great Charlie Parker, "First you have to learn every thing you can about your axe. Then you have to forget all that $%^& and just play."

 

[Phalex]

I'm not fantastic at soloing either. I tend to play lots of notes really fast, but completely lose the funk.

I have found that chord charts actually help my playing a lot though. If I'm looking at a chart and its calling out majors, minors, sevenths, suspended fourths..... I can totally do that.... Probably because I can do some stuff by ear, but the particulars I don't necessarily pick up on are important too.

YMMV......

 

[Menorahman]

how to improv 101

learn scales
play notes in scales

 

[Menorahman]

I've noticed that a lot of times, people who delve heavy into theory are worse at improv.

Theory is just the science behind music. Focus on it too much and you'll miss the big picture.

Gotta feel the music man.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

how to improv 101

learn scales
play notes in scales

A month ago, I recorded a rhythmic/harmonic backup of two chord progression: Gmaj7 | Ab13 | and decided to play improvisation by using ONLY the notes from the C major scale.

 

[FirewalZ]

How did you learn to speak English (assuming this is your native tongue)? Did you sit down and practice it 5 hrs a day, no, but yet you can seamlessly weave complex sentences while obeying all the "rules" of English. Learn Music the same way you learned how to speak, by being immersed in it..

 

[Menorahman]

How did you learn to speak English (assuming this is your native tongue)? Did you sit down and practice it 5 hrs a day, no, but yet you can seamlessly weave complex sentences while obeying all the "rules" of English. Learn Music the same way you learned how to speak, by being immersed in it..

This. Listen to music you like...like REALLY listen. Then go out and buy a loop pedal.

 

[sissy kathy]

I have studied jazz standard improvisation techniques from everyone of note from Carol Kaye to Scott Devine. I know all about what arpeggios, scales, modes and chord substitutions to use. My problem is this: How the hell do I keep all this knowledge organized in my head and be able to efficiently pick and choose what I need so I can improvise through a jazz standard. It is like input overload and the output is confused, jumbled, and totally dysfunctional.
How do you approach a jazz standard improvisation solo? Do you just play because you've practiced so much that it is natural and has become habit? Do you think about what you will do ahead of time? Do you work things through with the band in practice so you know what to do at a real show? How do you think so fast, especially on the uptempo songs? What are your thought processes for picking and choosing from your repertoire to play through a solo? How do you decide what you are going to do? How do you keep it all organized in your head? I think I have some kind of mental block or something that keeps me from being comfortable with soloing. I don't know. It is so frustrating, (but awe inspiring at the same time) to hear and see a bassist play a solo to a jazz standard and appear to do it efficiently and effortlessly. I've been playing almost 40 years, but when it comes to soloing.......aaarrrgghhhh!!! I just don't get it.
In other words, how do you simplify all of your bass playing knowledge to create a solid solo improvisation? For me it is like this...........seeing separate videos one at a time of each of the steps to build a house including the carpentry, plumbing, electrical, etc and thinking, "Yeah, that makes sense. I can do that".....but never seeing the complete video on how to put all these skills together to make the darn house....thinking "So, how the heck do I make a house?"
I really look forward to any advice all you wonderful bass players have to share and I thank you ahead of time. Thanks everyone!

Ya know, what's gonna happen; you are going to continue to have what you think is disassociated knowledge and you're going struggle with it for quite a while. One day, you'll be struggling with it and someone will ask a question or you'll be teaching a small point to a fellow bassist, and 'CLICK' it will all snap into place. It will all become clear as a bell all at once. It'll be a epiphany for you and you will marvel. You should try to spread your knowledge to others, it helps organize your thoughts and will further YOUR understanding.

 

[Groove Doctor]

IMO - You should put down the bass and try and "sing" the line in your head. THEN pick up the bass and play it. All your interval training should make this easier. Don't be afraid to go slow and make mistakes. If you're doing it right is should be hard.

That's what I was gonna say.

Or... have a triple scotch, turn the music up REALLY LOUD, and Sing loudly with the music. There's a reason jazz legends took so many drugs - it releases your creativity by lowering inhibitions & turning off the self-critical part of your mind. (Just don't get hooked).


You've overdeveloped the thinking part of music, and underdeveloped the listening/ feeling/ creative/ expressive sides of you. Sadly, most of us were taught this way too.

 

[LowEndWooly]

Good thread.

I've been youtubing drum loops and picking a key to play in to get my vocabulary more concrete. I've learned a lot about my own playing by doing this. Plus.. it's really fun to do drums and bass!

Bonus, plug in to a pedal board and get nasty.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

How did you learn to speak English (assuming this is your native tongue)? Did you sit down and practice it 5 hrs a day, no, but yet you can seamlessly weave complex sentences while obeying all the "rules" of English. Learn Music the same way you learned how to speak, by being immersed in it..

Learning to speak English does not guarantee that you WILL become a famous writer, or a superb Preacher that thousands of people want to listen, or a politician who can brainwash millions of people with its "sweet talk".

 

[Altitude]

how to improv 101

learn scales
play notes in scales

Actually, with this approach you'll end up sounding square, or like you're playing scales.

Listen to the melody of any song you like; the melodies generally don't move by half or whole step. Experiment with sequences of notes related by more than that - third, fifth, seventh, especially fourth. I find I build more interesting lines that way.

 

[FirewalZ]

Learning to speak English does not guarantee that you WILL become a famous writer, or a superb Preacher that thousands of people want to listen, or a politician who can brainwash millions of people with its "sweet talk".

I know...its just a different approach and thought process is all. I to have the same/similar issues as the OP but I don't earn a living from music, have a career and a bunch of kids so I don't really have the time to put into it to complain much about not progressing. I've always thought that having a good mentor, especially in Jazz, would be a great approach as well.

 

[Menorahman]

Actually, with this approach you'll end up sounding square, or like you're playing scales.

Listen to the melody of any song you like; the melodies generally don't move by half or whole step. Experiment with sequences of notes related by more than that - third, fifth, seventh, especially fourth. I find I build more interesting lines that way.

Are those not notes in the scale...?