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Double Bass Full Circle Installation- Element up or Down?

gnergaard

gnergaard

May 31, 2002
1,152
215
Chicago, IL USA
www.therightnow.com
#1
Yet more questions about the Full Circle for the Wise and Wonderful folks on Talkbass:

Should I install the Full Circle with the elements facing up to the strings or down toward to body?
The instructions seem to indicate that both are possible, with different tones as a result.
Here's the relevant info. on my situation:

Bass: 1940s American Standard (ply).
Bridge: pretty standard, already has adjusters that I'll be replacing with the F.C.
Strings: Weichs (well worn) with an Obligato G.
Amp: Woods into Bergantino 12, epifani ul310(sometimes even two of them. Yes- That loud.) etc...Demeter and kern pres and Raven Labs PMB II are options.
Pickup this is replacing: Realist.
Intended Uses:
I do LOTS of doubling, some VERY high volume and large venues, and more and more I need to switch from Arco to Pizz within songs very quickly. Have pity on me. Of course, sometimes I'm lucky enough to play smallish, intimate venues but I still like to use a little amp as my bass ain't no rocket. The fast changes between Arco and Pizz at high volumes are really kicking my ass, and I don't have much of an orchestra back ground. Hoping that the Full Circle will help.
Prior experiences:
My bass lacks some warm midrange generally, partly due to the strings but mostly due to the plywood and large (close to 7/8ths) body. I have boosted treble in the past with the Realist, but of course that doesn't help with arco much. Feedback is an issue, but one I suspect I'll never solve entirely to my satisfaction.

I'm willing to modify my existing bridge so that the element can face down if I think that this is the sound I'm after, but I'd really appreciate hearing from some TB'ers who have experience in this first. Wasn't there a post from someone who made little sleeves for the adjuster threads so that this could be done? Couldn't find it...

Thanks in advance. I've learned a lot from this site, and I hope to be able to give back as much as I've gained.
Greg
Chicago
(773) 271-2296
 
#2
Face up. Sense the strings. It'll save you some headaches with the loud thing. I've done both and won't point down again.

It'll tighten up the lows compared to the realist at some small expense of the "real"ness of the realist.

It's a better pickup. You'll love it. If you can play loud with the realist the Full Circle will be a walk in the park either way you face it.
 
#4
gnergaard said:
So did you get more feedback with the element down to the body?
What was the tone difference like? How did you compensate for the threads when you tried it?
Is it just me, or does this pick up sound A LOT like a BP-100?
Thanks,
Greg
Click to expand...
Higher feedback yes, tone difference was slight.

If you think it sounds like the BP100 it's not installed right.
 
#6
...it's better than the BP 100, certainly. But there's a high-mid to treble sizzle that was massive on the Bp 100 that is still boosted a little with the Full Circle. It's like the Fishman Piezo sonic trademark I've even heard it in their guitar pick ups.

Interesting that lots of people (like C. Fitzgerald) have the element facing the body. I have to say that this is the best pick-up I've used for avoiding feedback. As regards the tone, I'm not in love yet, but it's certainly useful, and will be much better than the Realist for high volume stuff I may try this blended with a Realist (just for some of the mid range and for the Realist's better Arco sound) and also tray an AB switch with the two pick ups using the Realist only for Arco and the Full Circle for Pizz.
 
#7
gnergaard said:
...it's better than the BP 100, certainly. But there's a high-mid to treble sizzle that was massive on the Bp 100 that is still boosted a little with the Full Circle.
Click to expand...
That doesn't sound right. I think something is amiss in the install. That thing should sound like the Realist only clearer.
 
#8
Uncletoad said:
Higher feedback yes, tone difference was slight.

Even if it is a difference as subtle as turning the FC Wheel 45 degrees, Imight be interested. If it's a difference in the mids or is even slightly more "woody" sounding as the Brochure describes, it may be valuable to me.

If you think it sounds like the BP100 it's not installed right.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I got it right, but I'll check again to be sure that the threads are straight. Remember- different basses.
My old American Standard has a very shallow neck angle and as a result the bridge is rather short. This element is probably closer to the strings than on lots of other folk's basses. Just a guess, but this thing has got LOTS of zing and lots of string noise on my bass.
But of course, I AM comming from the Realist, which is dead opposite of that in tone.
Does anybody remember seeing another TB-er post some pictures of little sleeves he had made for the Threads of the Full Circle? Would I have to tap the foot of my bridge?
Thanks, y'all.
 
#9
Uncletoad said:
That doesn't sound right. I think something is amiss in the install. That thing should sound like the Realist only clearer.
Click to expand...

Again, just guessing, but I'm thinking that the Full Circle sounds more like the Realist when the element is facing the body.

I know you are very experienced with this stuff, Uncle T, but are you sure that you have the element pointed toward the bridge and not the body?

-Greg
 
#10
Uncletoad said:
That doesn't sound right. I think something is amiss in the install. That thing should sound like the Realist only clearer.
Click to expand...
Possibly. But don't discount the effect of different basses.

I have both the Realist and the Full Circle installed on my carved German flatback and on my LaScala ply.

On my carved bass the Realist is a much better sounding pickup, with the Full Circle being too middy/high/thin. (I have done substantial experimentation with adjustments. Makes a big difference, but doesn't make it good.)

On my ply, the Full Circle is far superior and the Realist sounds like crap.

I'm not excited about either pickup though. It's just that both are much better than the others I've tried (Rev Solo, BP100, Underwood, Bass Max).
 
#12
All of this is true, different basses different pickups.

It's just that I've seen a couple basses where the bridge feet didn't fit right and the thing sounds terrible. I've also seen a couple basses where the sensing portion of the pickup wasn't sitting flat and square with the thing it's touching. In all those cases the low end is gone and the thing sounds terrible. As soon as the alignment was squared up or the bridge feet were fully seated through the center rather than the just the outside ends they came to life and sounded like I've described. I've not yet found a bass where no matter what I did they still sounded thin, but I'm sure it could happen.

There are situations where it could sound terrible even fully seated and well groomed. Indeed this is possibly one of those cases. I just point that out as they really are pickier pickups than you'd think, and adjustments are hard to do without some skills.

My backup bass I did threads down on the first bridge then threads up on the second and didn't notice much difference in tone but feedback issues increased a bit. The tone changes were a decrease in midrange presence threads up. Perhaps a bit more authentic sound threads up but not enough to put up with the feedback issues.

When it was time to do the Cleveland I went threads down.
 
#13
Unless you want to make a new bridge, I believe you have
to install the pickup whichever way your bridge is theaded.
I wanted my FC facing the stings but my old adjusters had
the threads on top, so my FC faces down at the body.
I used to mix a Realist and an Underwood with my RavenLabs
blender. Soundwise, the FC facing down is pretty much in
between the two pickups.
 
#15
...thanks for the advice, sir. I've got some gigs that will keep me busy for the next few days, but I'll re-investigate these issues come Sunday. I purchased it from a repair guy and player in the Washington State who said he's be glad to talk me through the installation if I needed help. Perhaps I'll take him up on that.
As far as the tone now- I'd just say that it's boosted in the highs and the lows- smiley-face EQ style, if you know what I mean. I'm cutting lows and highs to get closer to the sound I want. My best guess is that this is the tone of my bass- a little too boomy with the oversized plywood body and a bit bright with Weichs. I was also remembering that the particular tone that is boosted in the highs is the same frequency that I remember in the BP 100, but much less. I think it's just Fishman's 'signature sound' in piezo pick-ups. I also think that it's what might help this pick-up "cut through a mix" (to borrow an over used phrase from the electric bass side of things).

Uncletoad said:
All of this is true, different basses different pickups.

It's just that I've seen a couple basses where the bridge feet didn't fit right and the thing sounds terrible. I've also seen a couple basses where the sensing portion of the pickup wasn't sitting flat and square with the thing it's touching. In all those cases the low end is gone and the thing sounds terrible. As soon as the alignment was squared up or the bridge feet were fully seated through the center rather than the just the outside ends they came to life and sounded like I've described. I've not yet found a bass where no matter what I did they still sounded thin, but I'm sure it could happen.

There are situations where it could sound terrible even fully seated and well groomed. Indeed this is possibly one of those cases. I just point that out as they really are pickier pickups than you'd think, and adjustments are hard to do without some skills.

My backup bass I did threads down on the first bridge then threads up on the second and didn't notice much difference in tone but feedback issues increased a bit. The tone changes were a decrease in midrange presence threads up. Perhaps a bit more authentic sound threads up but not enough to put up with the feedback issues.

When it was time to do the Cleveland I went threads down.
Click to expand...
 
#17
Had a gig tonight with the new pickup installed and WOW, was I wrong. The EQ settings I was using at home were the complete opposite of what I needed at the gig. This pickup didn't sound bright at all, infact I actually boosted treble on the woods. It was a small club that was absolutely packed with warm, sound-absorbing bodies. I was able to bow a little bit and the sound for arco wasn't too bad.
I'll be curious to see what the pick up sounds like in the studio blended with a nice mic, and when I have a gig in a large venue where the PA has to do most of the work.
Only problem I really had is that the g string was a little quiet from 1st to 6th position. I use an old set of weichs with an Obligato G and I wonder if the difference between the steel core of the weichs and the synthetic core of the Obligato is the reason the G was a little quiet.
Absolutely NO feedback. Even when I switched to electric and forget to mute the signal going from the upright to the amp. Wow. This is reason enough for me to like this pick up.
Thanks for all of the advice, everybody. Looks like I was way off on my initial impressions. Next time I'll just shut up and listen to you all.
 
#18
On my 1961 pollmann the threads are down. I actually have to cut the bass with my Clarus/Bergie 112 stack setup. I just completed four days in the recording studio. I used my vintage Shure 330 ribbon for one channel with the Full Circle going through an Avalon U5 on another channel. The engineer said that the FC/Avalon sounded better than any other direct that he has heard. The mixdown will probably be 90% or more mic sound because the ribbon was fantastic. Years ago I was told that the ultimate mic for db is an RCA 44DX ribbon. I can't afford one of those, but the Shure did more than a credible job.

George
 
#19
61pollmann said:
On my 1961 pollmann the threads are down. I actually have to cut the bass with my Clarus/Bergie 112 stack setup. I just completed four days in the recording studio. I used my vintage Shure 330 ribbon for one channel with the Full Circle going through an Avalon U5 on another channel. The engineer said that the FC/Avalon sounded better than any other direct that he has heard. The mixdown will probably be 90% or more mic sound because the ribbon was fantastic. Years ago I was told that the ultimate mic for db is an RCA 44DX ribbon. I can't afford one of those, but the Shure did more than a credible job.

George
Click to expand...
I've seen one of those RCA ribbon mics before- I friend of mine picked one up in an estate sale almost by accident. It is incredible sounding but VERY delicate. There are some reproductions of that mic being made now that are much more robust, and more affordable. Thanks for the post.
Two shows comming up in fairly large (500-1000) venues this weekend. Lots of Pizz to arco switches. Cross your fingers for me. I'll let you know how the Full circle works in this context.
-Greg
 
#20
61pollmann said:
Years ago I was told that the ultimate mic for db is an RCA 44DX ribbon. I can't afford one of those, but the Shure did more than a credible job.
Click to expand...
Made me think of the recent BP article on Bob Moore, where he says:

“There’s never been one microphone I liked as well as an RCA 44 ribbon mic. That old 44 absolutely gets the best bass sound, especially for gut strings. I position mine fairly close to my right hand, above the ƒ-holes, just barely above the level of the bridge. Part of my sound comes from my strength of pulling the string; when I turn loose of the string, it has an attack that’s not necessarily the string making the noise—it’s my finger releasing the string, a little pop to start the note.”​

The article doesn't mention a DX or BX suffix on the microphone type for the RCA. But anyway, here's the Invalid Link Removed. Kinda of a tangent for this thread, but I really enjoyed the article. Just thinking about how many songs Bob appears on, and how often those recordings have been played and replayed over the years completely blows my mind.
 

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