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Double Bass Fulton Violin Plate Bending

#43
toman said:
Wow. That's quite the thread; I just read the first page and I'm allready cross-eyed. :help:
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And that is just one thread. I did a search on maestronet for "Fulton" and it came back with two full pages of threads about the Fulton Terpene Varnish. It's one of those "more that you ever wanted to know about ...". I will definately be trying some of the tips to reduce the exothermic reaction while cooking.

I also did a search for "plate bending", but did not come up with much on that one.

I got a reply back from Bruce Harvie at Orcas Island tonewoods about my inquiry if he had ever cut any green wood for doublebass makers that wanted to try the Fulton plate bending process. The answer was "no". I'll will keep searching. I just can't believe that no one has tried making a bass with bent plates. I have found several makers who made cellos with bent plates from green wood, but so far no basses.
 
#44
Bob, there is a guy in Alaska (alaska tonewoods) who sells wet spruce for basses-- it has been down for 20 years (blown down in a windstorm) but is still wet, because it is in a rainforest. What I have seen looks great, but I have no way to deal with big blocks of spruce (Sitka), and besides, I have seen several "caveats" on other threads that gave me pause. I wish I could just go there and buy the wood, personally, and drive away with it, but I don't think that is possible.

From people that actually bought his wood, I have heard it is as advertised-- VERY straight, even grain, absolutely clear... I will make no recommendation either way, but he DOES offer wet spruce. It would work for what you want.
 
#45
1st Bass said:
Bob, there is a guy in Alaska (alaska tonewoods) who sells wet spruce for basses-- it has been down for 20 years (blown down in a windstorm) but is still wet, because it is in a rainforest.
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Thanks for the information, but I'm not really looking to buy wet wood for myself (atleast not now). Buying wet wood from Alaska gets into some very expensive shipping when you live in the midwest. About 10 years I bought 6 Sitka Spruce bass tops that were from a log that had been under water for 25 years. Because of the weight, the shipping alone was over $600.

What I really am looking for is someone who has actually built a bass with bent top and back from green wet wood following Bill's methodology to the letter. I want to know how much spring back there was over several years and how the bass stands up sound wise to a good traditionally carved instrument. I like to experiment, but I'm not ready to tackle a project like this until I've talked to someone (preferably more than one someone) who have actually done it with results good enough that they would be willing to do it again.
 
#47
Ken McKay said:
Bob, did you read this link? I wrote this for MIMF in 6 years ago. Still haven't tried it though. It is not directly applicable to the DB because two silicon blankets that size would be pricy and require a lot of watts of energy.
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Yes, I remember reading that one. I've also seen the one using live steam in ice chests, but I'm still looking for the original Fulton methodoloy as applied to a bass. It seems to me that anything that involves higher temperatures is cooking the wood instead of drying it. I would think 190 degrees would be less likely to do damage to the wood structure and that is all the heat you need to make the lignim plastic.

(added)
I do use silicon heating blankets for bending bass ribs, but I don't have the expensive accurate temperature control, so I have to pull the plug based on the amount of steam coming off and past experience. It is very easy to over heat heat and burn the wood since the blankets can get up to around 500 degrees in a hurry. I once made the mistake of using heating blankets to warm up a AAA grade bass fingerboard prior to glueing and I forgot to turn off the power when I got called away. When I returned in about 30 minutes, the fingerboard was totally ruined. Since bass ribs are only a few mm thick, that usually isn't too much of a problem. With the thicker wood of a bass top or back, I just like the idea of having the temp controlled by water, you know that you are not going to exceed 212 degrees even if you forget it. Plus there is no danger of case hardening the wood with water.
 
#48
My varnish making project got an unexpected boost today when I found about a pint and a half of naturally polymerized gum terpentine that belonged to my late father. My father past away about 20 years ago and I'm sure that the terpentine was purchased at least 5 years before that. This old, naturally polymerized terpentine is much thicker than the stuff that I have been polymerizing with a fish tank air bubbler. The color is also a darker brown than the stuff I've made so far. When I cook the resin in the spring, I plan to make a separate batch with this naturally polymerized gum terpentine so I see if there is any significant difference in the end product.
 
#51
Matthew Tucker said:
What's the difference between the stuff you get after months of polymerising and cooking up the gooey turpentine, and Pop's?
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Well, they are both derived from the same trees. The difference is that the stuff that violin/bass rosin is made of (colophony) comes out as a solid earlier in the distillation process than the gum terpentine that is my basic ingredient for polymerizing and later cooking. It's my understanding that the terpene resin you get after cooking down the polymerize terpentine has considerably different properties than the colophony that ends up as violin/bass rosin. BTW, I do wish that I could get my polymerized terpentine as thick as Pops. My polymerized gum terpentine ended up being more like maple syrup at room temperature. The 20-30 year naturally polymerized stuff I found is much thicker than what I've been able to make by bubbling gum terpentine. More like cold honey. It's going to be interesting to see what the differences are after they are both cooked down to terpene resin.

You can make a sprit varnish from colophony by just disolving it in alcohol. A lot of older student grade instruments made in Europe used this type of varnish probably because it dries very fast. However, it does not wear well and turns into a powder when struck or scraped with anything hard.
 
#52
Hello guys, sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I'll be very greatfull if someone can send me the Fulton article on plate bending. I've graduated from violin making school in Salt Lake and now working in Moscow, Russia. Not too much information here. Thank you!
 
#57
A few years ago before I left KC Strings, we did an experiment with bent plates in a fiddle. I machined 2 inch alu plate to create a 2 sided 3d form. The surfaces were offset by 6mm so the surfaces would compensate for the thickness of the wood. I made the plates in halve, since hide glue would not stand up to the process we applied during bending. We heated a pickling solution and immersed the forms and wood clamped together and soaked them. I don't remember how long, then dried them. once dried I jointed the halves and joined them with fish glue. then carved them the cnc.

once the fiddle was finished it was a little harsh but very powerful. due to the low percentage of short grain wood in the top it was very strong. Since it was a 1 off experiment, it is impossible to learn much from it other than the bending technique worked well enough. I suspect that since the grain in the arch would be stronger, a thinner top might be reasonable.

that's my 2 cents worth
 
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#58
RCWilliams said:
A few years ago before I left KC Strings, we did an experiment with bent plates in a fiddle. I machined 2 inch alu plate to create a 2 sided 3d form. The surfaces were offset by 6mm so the surfaces would compensate for the thickness of the wood. I made the plates in halve, since hide glue would not stand up to the process we applied during bending. We heated a pickling solution and immersed the forms and wood clamped together and soaked them. I don't remember how long, then dried them. once dried I jointed the halves and joined them with fish glue. then carved them the cnc.

once the fiddle was finished it was a little harsh but very powerful. due to the low percentage of short grain wood in the top it was very strong. Since it was a 1 off experiment, it is impossible to learn much from it other than the bending technique worked well enough. I suspect that since the grain in the arch would be stronger, a thinner top might be reasonable.

that's my 2 cents worth
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Thank you for that information
 
#59
Bob Branstetter said:
Again, I really wish there were a link that I could post for this. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find one. The way Mr. Fulton's clamping plate works, the edge that attaches to the ribs stays absolutely flat, so that is not a problem. I forgot to mention that part of the bending process involves using wedges, so yes the plate is bent in two directions. It ends up looking not much different than what your finished bass top would look like it you were to cut it in half, right down the center seam.

I found Fulton's article in one of the past issues of the Violin Society of America Journals. It is about 15 pages long, but I'll see if I can make a pdf of it for those interested. All I ask is that you promise not to post it or distribute it anywhere on the internet since it is copyrighted material from a private organization.
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Dear Mr. Branstetter
Hullo
for a while I am researching about bending violin plates, sources are too rare and what you have is one of the most valuable ones,
you are only person I could find after many searches that has access to this article:
"Bending of Violin Top Plates: a Hypothesis"
unfortunately there is not any online version of it, or anywhere I could not find it to study,
I promise never share it since it is copyright protected,
So could I request to study it?

thanks and regards
Sina
 
#60
In the old times we use librarys to order articles as a photocopy by surface mail or maybe later as a scan. It does cost a bit per page (paying for copyright and handling), but I got all my articles that I could not find at my university library that way. It can take some weeks or even months to get them, but if you know where it is published and which pages you need this should be still a way to get this article.

Did even work with my local library of my home town, but was a bit more expensive and took even longer (mainly to find out from which library they could get the article). They typically start the search regional then national and only go international if really needed. That takes some time, but might be quicker now with electronic catalogs.
 

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