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Double Bass Fulton Violin Plate Bending

1st Bass said:
I used the method to bend a flat-back bass set of plates and make a roundback of them...my workmanship is still sub-standard, but the process does work, as I used it on 1/2" maple. I did not use ammonia, and as a result, got a little mildew during the process-- I sprayed a little bleach/water solution to kill the midew, but the bending was complete before the bleaching, and was not affected in any way.

Now that we are (hopefully) finished with this ammonia business, I would like to hear some of the details involved for you to bend the bass back.
I realize these are a lot of questions, but I would really appreciate knowing how you did these things.

(1) Where did you get your wood and was it green or dry when you got it?
(2) What did you use for a container to prepare the wood for bending?
(3) What material did you use to make the clamp? and did it warp during the bending process?
(4) About how large were the wedges you used?
(5) What did you use to hold the water and how did you heat the water and keep it hot?
(6) How long did the actual bending process take?
(7) How long did you wait before you attempted joining the two pieces and exactly how did you go about doing the joining?
(8) Did you graduate the back or leave it even?
(9) Once you had it on the bass, have you noticed any springback or other problems?
(10) Any problems you encountered during the process?
 
Bob Branstetter said:
I'm currently in the process of polymerizing a couple of gallons of gum turpentine and hope to have enough of Bill's Terpene varnish done by the time I get a bass finished that I'm making for my personal use.

Bob, I've heard the term "Terpene Varnish" a couple times recently. Could you please explain what it is, and expound on its qualities?
 
arnoldschnitzer said:
Bob, I've heard the term "Terpene Varnish" a couple times recently. Could you please explain what it is, and expound on its qualities?
Bill Fulton's Terpene varnish is probably the most popular cooked oil varnish recipe around today. Fulton and many other violin makers believe that this is an accurate recreation of the classic Italian violin varnish. I don't really care if it is or is not, I just like to look of it. The basic ingredients are gum terpentine and linseed oil. However, this is not a varnish for the timid. The gum terpentine must polymerized and then turned into a resin during a somewhat dangerous cooking process. It is not a varnish for everyone since it will not dry without being in the sun or in an ultraviolet drying cabinet. The first time I saw a violin varnished with it, I knew I had to try it atleast once. Here is a link to the Southern California Assoc. of Violin Makers website that shows a reprint of 2 articles by Bill Fulton. One is for making the Terpene Varnish and the other is for his Propolis ground. I intend to use both on my next bass. I've never made this varnish before, so I'm learning as I go. If there is any interest, I'll post a report on cooking it in the spring.
 
Bob Branstetter said:
Now that we are (hopefully) finished with this ammonia business, I would like to hear some of the details involved for you to bend the bass back.
I realize these are a lot of questions, but I would really appreciate knowing how you did these things.

(1) Where did you get your wood and was it green or dry when you got it?
(2) What did you use for a container to prepare the wood for bending?
(3) What material did you use to make the clamp? and did it warp during the bending process?
(4) About how large were the wedges you used?
(5) What did you use to hold the water and how did you heat the water and keep it hot?
(6) How long did the actual bending process take?
(7) How long did you wait before you attempted joining the two pieces and exactly how did you go about doing the joining?
(8) Did you graduate the back or leave it even?
(9) Once you had it on the bass, have you noticed any springback or other problems?
(10) Any problems you encountered during the process?

1. Bought it from John Tepper, of Tepper Tonewoods. Thoroughly air-dried.
2. Didn't have a container that big, so I used large rags, and kept 'em wet for a few days...cold, mostly, though once in a while I poured hot water over the mess.
3. I used 1" plywood decking on both sides, clamped all around, as tightly as I could manage--which effectively sealed the two halves in the center, so that after I began wedging them apart, I could pour the water inside the widening curved opening. It didn't warp, and I can use it again. Incidentally, as the opening got wider, I jammed strips of cloth into the seam, to stop leaks--the clamps couldn't totally seal it.
4. The wedges started off small, until I got a big enough opening, and gradually worked up to about a 2" wedge in each "end" (closer to the center of upper and lower bouts, as I saw fit). In the center I made a wineglass shaped wedge, and clamped the flaring center back in, to flatten the center a little...otherwise it was developing a steep peak in the middle that I really did not want.
5. Already addressed this one, sort of, but, after I thought the bending was complete (mostly cold), I conferred with Bill Fulton, and he opined that without heat it might just go back to flat (he could be right). So I made a steamer of a small metal drum, and 1" high-temp plastic hose, and closed off the completed curved gap with thin plywood, to hold steam, and steamed it from the inside until it was hot to the touch on the outside. It was late, and I decided to call it good, and go off to bed. It has relaxed a little, but maintained the curve I had hoped for...mostly.
6. I kept pecking away at it for about a week before the steam-heating process. I couldn't afford to break it and start over. :-)
7. I allowed it to dry for several weeks, including when I noticed the mildew, and sprayed it with bleach-water to kill it, then had to wait for that to dry.
8. I graduated the back a LOT, as it had been 13mm thick. the center is now about 9mm, and the thinnest parts around 5-6mm. I'm not done-- I had a bunch of things take higher priority for several months, and will not be able to get on it again for a few more weeks.
9. It is not on the bass, yet, but is sitting in the open air in my shop, unsupported, unclamped, and is maintaining its shape apparently. Incidentally, I also bent the upper break, using wet rags and a clothes-iron. I bent it full thickness (9mm, anyway), to allow carving afterward. It took about 2-1/2 hours as I recall--maybe more. This was another late-night fling.
10. Problems? They all looked like problems to me, as I had never done any of it before. :-)

PS. Now that I think aboiut it, I did carve the bend area in the upper break down to about 5mm, as I was afraid 9mm would be tough to bend--and I arched it, thinking I could maintain the arch through the bend, thus making a compound curve. That didn't work-- the arching went away, and the bend area ended up actually a little concave. :-( (Ah, well...it was worth a try.)
 
Although it appears that you followed a somewhat different path than Bill Fulton recommends for violins, it's interesting and apparently has worked for you. However, I too would worry about the potential spring back and wonder if the live steam from the inside could introduce some internal stresses that will come back later to haunt you - hopefull not. I hope you will keep us advised when you do get it on your bass for a while. I was going to ask if you had partially cut the ff holes prior to bending as Fulton recommends in the book, but I guess that thinning it down to 5mm prior to bending would accomplish basically the same purpose.

I was thinking that to more accurately follow Fulton's violin method that one could perhaps use an old iron bath tub and heat it with the elements from an old gas BBQ. However, It would probably have to be an outdoor project. I was also thinking that for wood preparation one could use big plastic garbage bags sealed at the top and with some big water filled sponges in the bottom but not touching the wood (I suppose you could put in a little ammonia to prevent the mold, but I don't want to open that can of worms again!). Bill makes an issue in the book about soaking in water not being the same thing as inducing moisure in a closed container.

Please don't interpret this as criticizing you or your methods. This is a big project in uncharted waters and not the kind of project that most people would be willing to tackle. Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
Bob,
First, good to see you on the forum. I've been gone a bit myself having moved to Mexico.

I greatly admire Bill Futon's work, but I'm not so sure about the plate bending. I know he looked at an old Amati(?) that he saw some evidence of that process involved, and Roger Hargrave who is one of today's great violin makers, wrote that he saw another. I can't imagine doing this with bass wood. Has anyone given a testimony on the sound of these instruments, Bill's or especially the Amati?
 
Auguste Tolbecque's book "l'art du luthier" (1903) mentions that the elder Gand in 1840 made some cellos and violins with tops using a bent central piece of wood and flanks added afterwards. Althouh the instruments were reported to be excellent, they were not as pretty as those with classic bookmatched grain patterns and received quite a bit of ridicule in Paris at the time just, I suppose, because of their novelty. So Gand gave up the idea.

Victor Rambaux, who worked with the elder Gand, developed Gands idea of "straight grain" by bending the whole top, but he used the "disgraceful" solution of varying the height of the ribs. The top was made in two pieces and bent "au feu" before being joined. Tolbecque says he played these instruments and they were good but hellishly ugly.

Rambaux's second solution was to make two planks a centimetre thick (for a violin) from straight-grained pine, then each side was bent on a bending iron before being glued together and finished with the planes. This time, the ribs were the standard height.

The result according to Tolbecque was excellent, however the resistance - and mockery - from players and other makers at the time could have quite easily ruined Rambaux's reputation, so he didn't continue.