Funk Music! ☝️

[retslock]

Independent Lens and or PBS
"We Want The Funk!"

Home - Independent Lens

Ritual | Season 2 Premieres August 06, 2026 Directed by Donald “D.Ray!” Washington How rituals in the American South shape identity, preserve history and sustain communities. More Info Watch Now Find us on THE PBS DOCUMENTARIES CHANNEL! Your home for full-length documentaries and short films...

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Thanks so much. I'm in Australia and the YT video would not display. Funk was at the heart of my musical development from the late '60s and really, it still is. I had never heard of Independent Lens before. You gotta love PBS.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Music is a product of culture, but looking at music from a strictly cultural studies perspective leaves a lot out. This has been one of the frustrations of musicologists in the non art-music sphere for a long time. Ethnomusicology, for example, would often be taught in cultural studies departments but not in actual music departments, with a focus on strictly the cultural aspects of music (with relatively little attention given to the inner workings of the music itself). A little bit of both is nice.

What do you feel is missing then with the cultural influences in music studies that removing the cultural aspects would reveal or hoping to reveal or understand?

Are you talking musical education like scales and notes, the basics of Westen music?

 

[Camaro69]

Funking awesome

 

[bass12]

What do you feel is missing then with the cultural influences in music studies that removing the cultural aspects would reveal or hoping to reveal or understand?

Are you talking musical education like scales and notes, the basics of Westen music?

Mostly the technical aspects of music and how that music functions independent of culture. In short, music analysis vs cultural analysis. For example (since I mentioned go-go earlier), when researching my MA thesis on go-go there were very few sources documenting the music. The only available book on the subject discussed go-go from a strictly cultural and historical perspective. But there was nothing in that book on what defined go-go from a strictly musical perspective, other than instrumentation. But I wanted to know where the elements originated from and what made the music itself - independent of cultural setting - distinctive. The cultural studies perspective is totally valid (and it's what the average person is likely to be most interested in) but incomplete if you're interested in the inner workings of the music.

So basically my expectations of a PBS documentary are too high. I feel like I've already read about - and seen - the story before, so I want a more in depth look at the music itself and its development from a more technical standpoint. Totally unreasonable of me the more I think about it. I did like the story about "Soul Makossa" - I'd never heard that one before (an old band of mine opened for Manu Dibango over twenty years ago and I got to hang with him a little after our sound check, which was really cool).

 

[DJ Bebop]

Mostly the technical aspects of music and how that music functions independent of culture. In short, music analysis vs cultural analysis. For example (since I mentioned go-go earlier), when researching my MA thesis on go-go there were very few sources documenting the music. The only available book on the subject discussed go-go from a strictly cultural and historical perspective. But there was nothing in that book on what defined go-go from a strictly musical perspective, other than instrumentation. But I wanted to know where the elements originated from and what made the music itself - independent of cultural setting - distinctive. The cultural studies perspective is totally valid (and it's what the average person is likely to be most interested in - but incomplete if you're interested in the inner workings of the music.

So basically my expectations of a PBS documentary are too high. I feel like I've already read about - and seen - the story before, so I want a more in depth look at the music itself and its development from a more technical standpoint. Totally unreasonable of me the more I think about it. I did like the story about "Soul Makossa" - I'd never heard that one before (an old band of mine opened for Manu Dibango over twenty years ago and I got to hang with him a little after our sound check, which was really cool).

So rather than learn the cultural aspects of the music, you wanna know the nuts and bolts of it. How many notes to the bar and why it's done that way? Or why that rhythm pattern was chosen?

 

[DJ Bebop]

Mostly the technical aspects of music and how that music functions independent of culture... But I wanted to know where the elements originated from and what made the music itself - independent of cultural setting - distinctive.

What other influence on the construction of music would there be other than in the culture the music was created in? The same notes or tones are used earth-wide as well as rhythm divisions. It is the cultures by means of body movement, melody that makes the changes to the mechanical aspects of the notes and rhythm patterns that vary through music I would think

 

[bass12]

So rather than lean the cultural aspects of the music, you wanna know the nuts and bolts of it. How many notes to the bar and why it's done that way? Or why that rhythm pattern was chosen?

I wouldn't expect those kinds of details in a historical documentary but I would like to hear more about what exactly led to what. What exactly influenced JB going from his R&B approach to "Cold Sweat" and what exactly his drummers brought to the table (and what their specific influences were). Emphasis on the downbeat was covered in the documentary but actually exploring where that came from would be of more interest to me. My favourite moment on the James Brown Foundations Of Funk compilation is the "Cold Sweat" outtake where JB is telling Clyde Stubblefield where he wants the emphasis. Those are the kinds of nuggets that get me excited.

But don't get me wrong - I do find the cultural elements fascinating, there's just a type of cultural studies approach to music that I encountered a lot during my various studies and I'm less interested in that these days.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Mostly the technical aspects of music and how that music functions independent of culture. In short, music analysis vs cultural analysis. For example (since I mentioned go-go earlier), when researching my MA thesis on go-go there were very few sources documenting the music. The only available book on the subject discussed go-go from a strictly cultural and historical perspective. But there was nothing in that book on what defined go-go from a strictly musical perspective, other than instrumentation. But I wanted to know where the elements originated from and what made the music itself - independent of cultural setting - distinctive. The cultural studies perspective is totally valid (and it's what the average person is likely to be most interested in) but incomplete if you're interested in the inner workings of the music.

So basically my expectations of a PBS documentary are too high. I feel like I've already read about - and seen - the story before, so I want a more in depth look at the music itself and its development from a more technical standpoint. Totally unreasonable of me the more I think about it. I did like the story about "Soul Makossa" - I'd never heard that one before (an old band of mine opened for Manu Dibango over twenty years ago and I got to hang with him a little after our sound check, which was really cool).

I have never seen a public television documentary that didn't put music within a cultural context. Music simply does not work without the right context. In 1980, the Go Go band, Trouble Funk had a national hit, Drop the Bomb. They came to my hometown, Sumter, SC that summer. I did not see the show, but I asked some folks. They did not like it because they play Drop the Bomb all night, a very DC/Go Go thing, but folks in the South Carolina Midlands knew nothing about it.

Two years later ,Kool Moe Dee opened for Cameo in Macon, Georgia. The rapper was booed off of the stage because he only had a DJ and no band. Within a year or two, Rap culture caught and Funk bands were now an endangered species.

Music is not created without culture. If you know theory well enough, you can write the technical analysis yourself.

 

[bass12]

What other influence on the construction of music would there be other than in the culture the music was created in? The same notes or tones are used earth-wide as well as rhythm divisions. It is the cultures by means of body movement, melody that makes the changes to the mechanical aspects of the notes and rhythm patterns that very through music I would think

I would probably be inclined to look at the cultural environment as the macrocosm and perhaps the individual musician as the microcosm - with the music as a very specific outcome which can be analyzed in various ways - including in ways that are completely detached from anything other than the notes on the page (though that approach is of less interest to me). There's a whole school of musicology (admittedly more or less restricted to the world of "art-music") which eschews the consideration of any detail or factor not found on the music manuscript. Ethnomusicology helped open that up with a completely different approach.

But looking only at culture doesn't tell you all the differences between, for example, rockers reggae and post 1985 Jamaican dancehall - although social and technological changes will give you a clue as to why and how those changes occurred. For some answers you have to analyze the music itself. Furthermore, it can be easy to make false assumptions based on cultural factors. So if all you are looking at is the culture then you may be getting a distorted, or completely false, idea of the truth.

 

[bass12]

I have never seen a public television documentary that didn't put music within a cultural context. Music simply does not work without the right context. In 1980, the Go Go band, Trouble Funk had a national hit, Drop the Bomb. They came to my hometown, Sumter, SC that summer. I did not see the show, but I asked some folks. They did not like it because they play Drop the Bomb all night, a very DC/Go Go thing, but folks in the South Carolina Midlands knew nothing about it.

Two years later ,Kool Moe Dee opened for Cameo in Macon, Georgia. The rapper was booed off of the stage because he only had a DJ and no band. Within a year or two, Rap culture caught and Funk bands were now an endangered species.

Music is not created without culture. If you know theory well enough, you can write the technical analysis yourself.

I'm not disputing any of that - except that I'm not simply talking about technical analysis but about specific musical elements and where those elements came from. That's something that analysis of the music is not necessarily going to be able to answer and that a cultural studies approach is less likely to pursue.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I would probably be inclined to look at the cultural environment as the macrocosm and perhaps the individual musician as the microcosm - with the music as a very specific outcome which can be analyzed in various ways - including in ways that are completely detached from anything other than the notes on the page (though that approach is of less interest to me). There's a whole school of musicology (admittedly more or less restricted to the world of "art-music") which eschews the consideration of any detail or factor not found on the music manuscript. Ethnomusicology helped open that up with a completely different approach.

But looking only at culture doesn't tell you all the differences between, for example, rockers reggae and post 1985 Jamaican dancehall - although social and technological changes will give you a clue as to why and how those changes occurred. For some answers you have to analyze the music itself. Furthermore, it can be easy to make false assumptions based on cultural factors. So if all you are looking at is the culture then you may be getting a distorted, or completely false, idea of the truth.

So setting the culture aside, what can be determined by examining the notes on the page? What is it that is trying to be discovered at that point?

I guess I don't get it and I am not embarrassed to admit that.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I'm not disputing any of that - except that I'm not simply talking about technical analysis but about specific musical elements and where those elements came from. That's something that analysis of the music is not necessarily going to be able to answer and that a cultural studies approach is less likely to pursue.

That is historical or musicological research. You need to talk to band members and DJ and track down records or other recordings. You need to ask band members who there influences were. See if you can find out who started the Go Go beat. I have directed a few MA theses, you have me feeling like I'm in my office and talking to a student.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'm not disputing any of that - except that I'm not simply talking about technical analysis but about specific musical elements and where those elements came from. That's something that analysis of the music is not necessarily going to be able to answer and that a cultural studies approach is less likely to pursue.

But aren't those specific musical aspects and where they come from in fact drift from different cultures and that is where they came from? Is it not the intertwining of cultures that brings about additions and changes to music and cultural changes in general we see? In short, it's a human thing.

 

[bass12]

So setting the culture aside, what can be determined by examining the notes on the page? What is it that is trying to be discovered at that point?

I guess I don't get it and I am not embarrassed to admit that.

Well, if you're a musicologist it means you've discovered a way to become employed at a university.

It could be a variety of things. I know someone who specializes in Debussy. She has analyzed his work in ways that, I assume, have given her a much better understanding of what makes Debussy's music what it is - and why it is (or was) so unique.

I think a lot of it is simply a matter of trying to figure out what makes music "tick". Identifying commonalities, divergences, confirming hunches, satisfying "nerdy" curiosity. On a more practical level: helping to settle plagiarism lawsuits. But it can also help with pinpointing changes in a music's evolution. To me this stuff is, indeed, most interesting when it's combined with cultural aspects (such as semiotics). Otherwise, yes, it can be pretty dry and academic.

 

[bass12]

But aren't those specific musical aspects and where they come from in fact drift from different cultures and that is where they came from? Is it not the intertwining of cultures that brings about additions and changes to music and cultural changes in general we see? In short, it's a human thing.

They might be, but they could also simply be the result of an individual's interpretation of something, or an individual's imagination.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Well, if you're a musicologist it means you've discovered a way to become employed at a university.

It could be a variety of things. I know someone who specializes in Debussy. She has analyzed his work in ways that, I assume, have given her a much better understanding of what makes Debussy's music what it is - and why it is (or was) so unique.

I think a lot of it is simply a matter of trying to figure out what makes music "tick". Identifying commonalities, divergences, confirming hunches, satisfying "nerdy" curiosity. On a more practical level: helping to settle plagiarism lawsuits. But it can also help with pinpointing changes in a music's evolution. To me this stuff is, indeed, most interesting when it's combined with cultural aspects (such as semiotics). Otherwise, yes, it can be pretty dry and academic.

That's another thing, analysis Debussy's music and understanding what makes it his because he uses a certain approach in his note and rhythm choices that one can recognize his music, as his. Like Ellington's music is his because of his note and rhythm choices. Those things can be analyzed from the paper and recognized. But by also knowing and seeing the cultural background and time frame also adds some more meat to the analysis I would think.

 

[DJ Bebop]

They might be, but they could also simply be the result of an individual's interpretation of something, or an individual's imagination.

But those things are not usually formed in a vacuum.

 

[bass12]

But those things are not usually formed in a vacuum.

You're absolutely right. But my point is that only looking at the culture is unlikely to give you the full picture (though it might give you the part of the picture that you're interested in - which is fine). But this, to me at least, is one of the most fascinating aspects of music: that it is so often the product of a swirling of an incredible number of elements and factors.

 

[bass12]

That's another thing, analysis Debussy's music and understanding what makes it his because he uses a certain approach in his note and rhythm choices that one can recognize his music, as his. Like Ellington's music is his because of his note and rhythm choices. Those things can be analyzed from the paper and recognized. But by also knowing and seeing the cultural background and time frame also adds some more meat to the analysis I would think.

I would agree. But there are some musicologists (again, this is more old school and tends to be restricted to the "classical" cannon) who would disagree. But I think the goals of such musicologists is probably a bit different from those of the more contemporary types. It's been a while since I read my Kerman (you don't want to know - utterly boring reading of the kind that gives musicology a bad name ).

 

[retslock]

What other influence on the construction of music would there be other than in the culture the music was created in? The same notes or tones are used earth-wide as well as rhythm divisions. It is the cultures by means of body movement, melody that makes the changes to the mechanical aspects of the notes and rhythm patterns that vary through music I would think

The funk is not in the notes. It's in the attitude - the energy.
It's interesting to separate music from culture per se. Other than academically I don't see them being exclusive. Can you take drums out of African culture? Ireland, Italy, all the latin countries, India and more - how can you separate music as not inherent to culture.