Funk University Disappointment

[NickyBass]

Jaquo, are you talking about some intangible abstract essence of the blues and the true meaning behind the music as a means of self expression? Then, maybe there aren't any European elements.

But in reality, music doesn't exist on essence alone--or at least no music that can be portrayed to others. Maybe the point of blues isn't to be heard by others. I don't know. I'm not a blues musician. What I do know is that there is alot to be learned by studying European music. I encourage you to at least look into it.

 

[wade_b]

Oh, and European rhythms are stiff? Which ones? Well, I can think of some. Are ALL European rhythms stiff? Greece is part of Europe, as is Yugoslavia, Croatia, and Macedonia.

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

And I was married to a Greek - I've been to Greece twice, and I spent extensive time amongst the locals there.

I've heard plenty of off-time bazouki music.

That stuff wouldn't swing if you hung it, sorry to say.

 

[mulchor]

And I was married to a Greek - I've been to Greece twice, and I spent extensive time amongst the locals there.

A cool, Greece!

What's that thing they set up for us, that strophic form, Greek chorus and all.

hmmm... that's the basis for ABAB, AAB, verse/chorus/bridge form.

Shame there ain't none of that in R&B or Funk.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I never said that all European rhythms are stiff.

This is what I said.

Most rhythms that are of European origin is for the most part stiff. How could some one who has a natural life in their rhythm naturally would even want to be influenced by a form of rhythm that is stiff and lifeless for the most part.

 

[wade_b]

A cool, Greece!

What's that thing they set up for us, that strophic form, Greek chorus and all.

hmmm... that's the basis for ABAB, AAB, verse/chorus/bridge form.

Shame there ain't none of that in R&B or Funk.

Dude, you can find Greek music influence in any music based on western harmony.

I'd compare bazouki to bluegrass before I went and compared it to funk though.

I'm just not hearing the connection between blazing single note lines played on a bazouki with anything in the Funk genre.

And interesting that the Jazzers mentioned here (Coltrane et. al) were players who solo'ed 16th notes incessantly - again, blazing single note solos really have no place in Funk so I'm not seeing the connection here.

 

[NickyBass]

I never said that all European rhythms are stiff.

This is what I said.

Well, regardless of the wording, we've established that main European infuence was not the rhtythm, but the harmonic composition, instrumentation and song form---so, let's get past this whole stiff thing.

What about the other points?

 

[wade_b]

Well, regardless of the wording, we've established that main European infuence was not the rhtythm, but the harmonic composition, instrumentation and song form---so, let's get past this whole stiff thing.

What about the other points?

Most music has common roots somewhere.

I think Jauqo's point is that Funk is more heavily influenced by African music than other elements.

I agree with him.

Hell, just look at the word "Funk" and it's usage and context. There's nothing white about that word AT ALL.

Next y'all will be tryin' to tell me that Reefer is a white man's word.

 

[NickyBass]

Dude, you can find Greek music influence in any music based on western harmony.

I'd compare bazouki to bluegrass before I went and compared it to funk though.

I'm just not hearing the connection between blazing single note lines played on a bazouki with anything in the Funk genre.

And interesting that the Jazzers mentioned here (Coltrane et. al) were players who solo'ed 16th notes incessantly - again, blazing single note solos really have no place in Funk so I'm not seeing the connection here.

The study of music history is a study of the evolution of music. Funk didn't just happen. It was the evolution/fusion of alot of other genres---many of which had African influences and many of which had European influences. You can't just pick two random examples and expect to instantly see a direct connection.

 

[NickyBass]

Most music has common roots somewhere.

I think Jauqo's point is that Funk is more heavily influenced by African music than other elements.

I agree with him.

Hell, just look at the word "Funk" and it's usage and context. There's nothing white about that word AT ALL.

Next y'all will be tryin' to tell me that Reefer is a white man's word.

No, his point is that there is ZERO European influence on funk and blues. Do you agree with that? That is what we are debating. The roots are in Africa, no doubt, but there is a European influence.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well, I guess funk is dead for sure... Once you get a bunch of okie dokes tryin' to lay a bunch of analysis onto whatever music, you can pretty much move the F*** on...

Happened to jazz n the 60's, but luckily classical was stillborn, since it's pretty much rooted in analysis.

You guys consider just tryin' to feel it and not overthink everything?

 

[wade_b]

No, his point is that there is ZERO European influence on funk and blues. Do you agree with that? That is what we are debating. The roots are in Africa, no doubt, but there is a European influence.

Well I think this starts to get pretty academic.

Of course there has to be some European influence, because the founding fathers of funk grew up surrounded by that influence.

But Funk is all about the rhythm - it's light on notes and heavy on the rhythm. It also tends to be repetitious.

These are very African-influenced characteristics.

Heck, even the over-the-top dress has it's roots in Africa.

 

[wade_b]

You guys consider just tryin' to feel it and not overthink everything?

Hey man, I don't even attempt to play funk music.

We're just having a discussion here.

 

[NickyBass]

Well I think this starts to get pretty academic.

Of course there has to be some European influence, because the founding fathers of funk grew up surrounded by that influence.

But Funk is all about the rhythm - it's light on notes and heavy on the rhythm. It also tends to be repetitious.

These are very African-influenced characteristics.

Heck, even the over-the-top dress has it's roots in Africa.

I agree with you.

The conversation was about blues music originally, but I agree with your post.

 

[NickyBass]

Well, I guess funk is dead for sure... Once you get a bunch of okie dokes tryin' to lay a bunch of analysis onto whatever music, you can pretty much move the F*** on...

Happened to jazz n the 60's, but luckily classical was stillborn, since it's pretty much rooted in analysis.

You guys consider just tryin' to feel it and not overthink everything?

It's not analysis. It's a discussion of music history and it's evolution/fusion---which I feel is very important.

 

[mulchor]

I never said that all European rhythms are stiff.

This is what I said.

Nice quote.

I think there may be something of interest in the bit of people not wanting to have been influenced by stuffy old white folks.

I think the "would even want to be influenced by" is a different avenue than actually influenced by. If you look at that, considering that "R&B" was a term invented to take the place of "Negro music" or "race music" we're looking at an era predating most members of talkbass. For those who came of age before Roots, before the black power movement, the drive and focus was not Africa, but very urban, very American.

The push is to look good and sound good, the frequent themes of swagger, virtuosity. The glamour, the bling, the style was not looking anywhere to Africa. I think the allure of "Africa" in the culture has been so powerful since its resurgence because it was omitted for generations previously.

My hunch is if you time-travelled back to 1940s and talked to people in R&B that they'd be very put off by talk of Africa, tribalism, or primitive elements or influences on their lives and music.

I'm not saying that there weren't African elements influencing R&B, etc.

I really do think if you're going to talk about influence (in contrast to wanting to be influenced), you need to be more analytical than talking about a "stiff feel." Stiff feel or its absence should be marked by some actual musical quality.

Rhythm in European music (and African music from the regions we'd consider relevant to R&B) are based on subdivision. 32 bars, each bar with 4 beats (or whatever), each beat chopped up triples or duples.

I think if you break down beat patterns, you might find something that's African and not European. Kinda like the standard reggae beat (1) 2 THREE 4, that is really Caribbean. I get kinda hung up on "the one" though.

 

[wade_b]

Nice quote.

I think there may be something of interest in the bit of people not wanting to have been influenced by stuffy old white folks.

I think the "would even want to be influenced by" is a different avenue than actually influenced by. If you look at that, considering that "R&B" was a term invented to take the place of "Negro music" or "race music" we're looking at an era predating most members of talkbass. For those who came of age before Roots, before the black power movement, the drive and focus was not Africa, but very urban, very American.

The push is to look good and sound good, the frequent themes of swagger, virtuosity. The glamour, the bling, the style was not looking anywhere to Africa. I think the allure of "Africa" in the culture has been so powerful since its resurgence because it was omitted for generations previously.

My hunch is if you time-travelled back to 1940s and talked to people in R&B that they'd be very put off by talk of Africa, tribalism, or primitive elements or influences on their lives and music.

I'm not saying that there weren't African elements influencing R&B, etc.

I really do think if you're going to talk about influence (in contrast to wanting to be influenced), you need to be more analytical than talking about a "stiff feel." Stiff feel or its absence should be marked by some actual musical quality.

Rhythm in European music (and African music from the regions we'd consider relevant to R&B) are based on subdivision. 32 bars, each bar with 4 beats (or whatever), each beat chopped up triples or duples.

I think if you break down beat patterns, you might find something that's African and not European. Kinda like the standard reggae beat (1) 2 THREE 4, that is really Caribbean. I get kinda hung up on "the one" though.

You seem to be assuming that people have to be aware of an influence in order to be influenced.

That's not the case.

Music was passed down in the same way as oral traditions were. The practitioner may have no knowledge of Africa or even African music.

But his slave grandfather did, and he taught his son, who taught his son, and so on.

 

[mulchor]

You seem to be assuming that people have to be aware of an influence in order to be influenced.

That's not the case.

Music was passed down in the same way as oral traditions were. The practitioner may have no knowledge of Africa or even African music.

But his slave grandfather did, and he taught his son, who taught his son, and so on.

No, I was moving from Jauqo's repeated assertion that from where people WANT to have been influenced is relevant.

Again, my personal preference in musical analysis is to look at actual musical elements. Look at the instruments, the musical form, the performers, the socio-political context, . . .

 

[NickyBass]

I think if you break down beat patterns, you might find something that's African and not European. Kinda like the standard reggae beat (1) 2 THREE 4, that is really Caribbean. I get kinda hung up on "the one" though.

Alot of Caribbean rythms have their roots in Africa too.

 

[wade_b]

Good art is a reflection of the viewpoint and influences on the artist.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I gave many:

-Coltrane studied Ravel
-Charlie Parker studied Stravinsky
-Blues uses European instruments
-Blues, jazz and R&B uses European harmony
-Blues, jazz and R&B use song form from Europe
-Jazz uses alot of popular show songs as standards
-Jazz uses European instruments
-Here's an Art Blakey quote for you: "No America, no jazz. I’ve seen people try to connect it to other countries, for instance to Africa, but it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with Africa"

Do you really need more?

+1,000. And let's give it up to Adolphe Sax FROM BELGIUM (!!!) for having invented the Saxophone which ended up profoundly changing "American" and indeed many other musics all over the world.