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G.Benz Tube Works

#21
parhrgiger... you have taken everything I said and twisted it around in an inaccurate and IMO inapproprate way. Really not cool.

I have always gone out of my way to help folks here, including TW owners of equipment that I have never even seen in person and has been discontinued and unsupported long before we ever got involved. EXPECTING me to support something that I have not seen, and have no paperwork nor parts availability for and then publicly making the insulting comments that you did is really unbelievable sir.

BTW, we do support the product that we were responsable for subject to the availability of parts. We often get requests for the output MOSFETS which are unobtanium. When customers discover this, and especially when it's for an amp they just bought that "needed a little work", they are undrestandably pretty upset and justifiably so. If you know of a confirmed source for these 2SKJ0 and 2SK135 (non-counterfit only), please let the rest of the tech world know. Even I need a pair for a Hitachi resoration project that is dead in the water.

Frankly, I am sorry I bothered to offer the information. Hope the OP found some value in it at least.
 
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#22
It is kind of disappointing that it seems GB bought out TW and then more or less buried it shortly thereafter (whether deliberately or just due to market forces I can't say). I have a feeling juding from their formula of tube pre/ss power section (like all the TW stuff) that they likely harvested a lot of tech/design stuff from TW, leaving the actual TW products to sort of wither away. It does seem kind of strange that they would buy a company and not make sure they got their schematics, parts, etc... for that company's previous products.

I remember seeing a fair amount of the TW stuff back in the early/mid 90s, as the main local guitar store was apparently a dealer. I tried out some of the guitar stuff back then and it always sounded really cool, and finally a few years ago, I got a steal on a slightly worn 100w guitar combo (I think I paid less than $250 including shipping and the guy through in 2 almost brand new 15' cables and a Boss Super Overdrive). Some of the pots are a little scratchy but in general the thing sounds incredible. Unfortunately, driving home from a gig (where I didn't even end up using it) on the rough "streets" (if you can call them that) of DC, the baffle separate from the cab and I still haven't been able to find a place to fix it. Before that happened, I also got one of the TW 1x12 guitar extension cabs. Pretty cool little cab actually that's got a removable panel in the back to switch between open and closed back. I doubt it's original, but someone put a Marshall Black Gold speaker in it. Don't know anything about those, but it sounds pretty good. The combo had the original TW branded speaker which also sounds great.

For quite a while, I was using the head from the combo for bass through an old Carvin 1x15, and I have to say, that sounded really good. Being only 100w, it didn't have tons of headroom, but it was loud enough for rehearsals, and even when breaking up a bit it had a nice sound to it. Not tons of low end for bass, but a really good tone more on the vintage side (the cab and bass probably contributed to that).

I wish there was still more of this stuff out there. They had some pretty cool products back in the day. Obviously the Tube Drivers are well sought after by guitarist due to their association with guys like Eric Johnson, Gilmour, etc... but the amps somehow were always a bit neglected despite sounding really good.
 
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#23
Why the huffing and puffing about a lack of support for a discontinued product made 20 years ago? They made a decision to move on without doing anything with TW, and further the GB name/product line. Done deal.

Besides, what benefit does GB have on the sale of a used amp without their actual name on it?

Agedhorse gave a fair warning to the OP. No harm in that.
 
#24
How exactly are they supposed to support a product that was made before they bought the company? It was very clearly stated that the output MOSFETs (made by a 3rd party) are no longer in production and very hard to find. For whatever reason GB discontinued the Tube Works line, I'm pretty sure they didn't strong-arm Mr. Butler into selling. It was for sale, they bought it, and it didn't work out. Bad-mouthing a very respected company isn't going to change that. I also don't see how they can provide you with documents that, as has already been clearly stated, they themselves do not have. I wouldn't expect Michael Tobias to provide warranty service on a bass that was made by Gibson after they bought the company from him, as he is in no way responsible for the quality of someone else's work.

As for your suggestion that Tube Works was bought simply to steal design elements, I can tell you that Jeff Genzler has been designing amps for quite some time, and has been consistently ahead of the curve in predicting the trends of the marketplace. He's also a very stand up guy who backs his products 110%, often repairing products that are far out of their warranty period. If GB says they can't help you with something it means exactly that. Not won't, can't. No need to be a jerk about it.
 
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#26
I didn't badmouth anybody, like I said, I don't know exactly what happened or what the motives were. I didnt say they "stole" design elements, but it seems likely those elements may have been a big incentive for the sale. All I know is the outcome for TW itself was not good and they basically disappeared almost immediately, although I have seen some post GB TW amps (these have a very distinctive look that is completely different from the classic black/yellow chassis with grey carpet looks of the original stuff).

The Tobias/Gibson example you mention is the complete opposite of GB/TW. How do you buy a company and not get their IP and then also not really do anything with their products? It just seems extremely strange. I don't know the underlying reasons, but something went wrong there.
 
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#28
Companies buy other companies and close them up all the time. Maybe Jeff was more interested in their factory equipment than the amps themselves. I don't know. But for whatever reason, Tube Works is a dead issue now, and the amps are long out of warranty anyway, so even if they did offer support, it would cost you. For an amp that's lucky to get a couple hundy on the used market, why do you even care?
 
#29
The only place Tubeworks is mentioned on the Genz site is, understandably under "discontinued products". They do have owners manuals in pdf. No mention is made of service/support or lack of it. No mention of parts out of production, etc. That's just the way it is. A simple one sentence stating "some parts required for service are no longer available" wouldn't be too much to ask, doesn't have to turn into a big stink. They did buy TW and immediately shut it down. People don't do that for no reason. There had to be something of benefit to them there. They could support users of a brand they own by simply adding one sentence to the website, it may save some people of going through the exact trouble agedhorse was describing.
 
#30
Oh well .. I use an RT 3300.. it is killer. I contacted B.K himself and ordered the correct 12ax7 for it, great service and advice even though he doesn't own the company any more... that is a great attitude and Genz should take lesson from that. If you find one in combo or 19 inch get it.
 
#31
Dave Neal said:
Oh well .. I use an RT 3300.. it is killer. I contacted B.K himself and ordered the correct 12ax7 for it, great service and advice even though he doesn't own the company any more... that is a great attitude and Genz should take lesson from that. If you find one in combo or 19 inch get it.
Click to expand...

This is a five year old thread I really wish you had left dead. Both the guys here from GB are legendary for helping out whomever they can WHEN THEY CAN. I can't hold a candle to their abilities but I have some electronics training. If a good friend came to me and said "Hey, here's a 20 year old stereo that's busted. Can you fix it?" I would look for a schematic and a source for parts. If I could find neither that could be trusted, the BEST thing to tell my friend is "Sorry pal. Not much I would venture into under the hood without a schematic and a good source for parts."

That's all they were saying and it's the right thing to say. It woukd still be the right thing to say if I uswd to run the comoany that made the thing. I don't have a dog in the fight other than reading COUNTLESS threads where these guys from GB have chimed in to help out customers even thought THEY don't own the companies anymore. It's not personal. It's electronics.

Enjoy your amp.
 
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#32
two fingers said:
This is a five year old thread I really wish you had left dead. Both the guys here from GB are legendary for helping out whomever they can WHEN THEY CAN. I can't hold a candle to their abilities but I have some electronics training. If a good friend came to me and said "Hey, here's a 20 year old stereo that's busted. Can you fix it?" I would look for a schematic and a source for parts. If I could find neither that could be trusted, the BEST thing to tell my friend is "Sorry pal. Not much I would venture into under the hood without a schematic and a good source for parts."

That's all they were saying and it's the right thing to say. It woukd still be the right thing to say if I uswd to run the comoany that made the thing. I don't have a dog in the fight other than reading COUNTLESS threads where these guys from GB have chimed in to help out customers even thought THEY don't own the companies anymore. It's not personal. It's electronics.

Enjoy your amp.
Click to expand...
I guess so .. but the people at Genz couldn't tell me anything .. like which tube to use or replacement speakers .. no problem .. the designer still stands behind his designs and helped me out pronto. The story that Genz has no schematics or info on Tube works is just baloney, as they paid for the company they must have the documentation to go with their purchase.. peace out.
 
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#33
Dave Neal said:
I guess so .. but the people at Genz couldn't tell me anything .. like which tube to use or replacement speakers .. no problem .. the designer still stands behind his designs and helped me out pronto. The story that Genz has no schematics or info on Tube works is just baloney, as they paid for the company they must have the documentation to go with their purchase.. peace out.
Click to expand...
I would help if I could, but GB didn't buy the company from BK Butler. He had sold what remained of it several years earlier to another company and when we bought what was left after the second owners had shut it down, there was no reliable documentation of any of the earlier product that in some cases amps/speakers that we have never even seen. We will still attempt to assist with the repair of the models we designed or sold (as we have documentation), but you guys need to remember that the brand was discontinued (mostly due to lack of popularity) close to 15 years ago and most of the earlier products that you mention are well over 20 years old. Since Mr. Butler designed and built them, he might be in a better position to support them.

Now, I would like to comment specifically on the disrespectful nature of the comments that a few of you have put forth. The accusations are inaccurate, and frankly I have dealt with enough negative customer attitudes recently from those I have tried to help that I am done, I will no longer support any product that we didn't design in-house. Furthermore I will not support any customer that comes at me with attitude, or threatens me in any way regardless of the product (mostly from the guitar side of things).

I have supported the Tubeworks product myself as a goodwill gesture to the community, but since it's impossible for me to support products I haven't seen or do not have documentation/parts available, it's time for me to move on. This does not change my factory/manufacturer support for the Genz Benz branded products, though I do ask that you be respectful when contacting me for support. There is a reason why many of the old (real) pro service guys are leaving this industry and not being replaced by qualified techs, some of it is reflected in the way this thread has progressed.
 
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#34
Dave Neal said:
I guess so .. but the people at Genz couldn't tell me anything .. like which tube to use or replacement speakers .. no problem .. the designer still stands behind his designs and helped me out pronto. The story that Genz has no schematics or info on Tube works is just baloney, as they paid for the company they must have the documentation to go with their purchase.. peace out.
Click to expand...

OK, Dave. You haven't been here all that long so I'm going to put my rant aside and try to simply help you with some perspective. K?

Let's set 20 year old gadgets and their corresponding paperwork aside briefly and talk about people. You made this personal so I will to. You attacked the character of the guys at GB. Do this. Go to their profile pages. When you do that you can scroll through their posts they have put up as far back as you care to go. When you do that, you will find literally THOUSANDS of posts where they have helped out people in the community here. And not just with GB questions. They have offered advice to people trouble shooting other brands. They have offered up their expertise to people designing and altering their own projects. They have suggested gear that one might purchase that would serve their needs well (and not even brands they are affiliated with).

With all that in mind, how on earth could you draw the conclusion that they are somehow UNWILLING to help???? That is a ridiculous notion on its face. They don't get paid by TalkBass or anyone here who has benefitted from their advice. They are givers and helpers by nature. They are also bass gear enthusiasts just like we are!

So, please, stop and think about what you are typing. The very fact that BK Butler still has the old schematic laying around proves he didn't hand over every single document that ever was associated with his former company. You can't call anybody at Magnavox and get support for Ampeg amps they made. You can't call anybody at the current Acoustic and get support for any products they made in the past. Gibson isn't going to help you with an early Tobias.

And you sure aren't going to get any better FREE advice than you will find here from the likes of @agedhorse @line6man @B String and several others like them. (And apparently my grandfather was right. No good deed goes unpunished.)

You need help with a piece that is 20 years out of production made by a company that has been sold several times. It's not GB's fault. It's not BK Butler's fault. It's not anybody's fault. And it is no longer the legal or moral obligation for any of them to help you. But just understand that the guys formally associated with GB help people all the time. They don't ever refuse to help when they can. They DO stand by the products THEY designed....and even the ones they didn't if they are able to help. If they say they don't have the schematic and can't help, well then that simply is the case.

You have the right to be upset that your favorite piece of gear failed on you. You do not have the right to cast aspersions and make ginormous assumptions about the character of guys that help people here every day for free.

Now you are free to "peace out".
:thumbsup:
 
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#35
Dave Neal said:
I guess so .. but the people at Genz couldn't tell me anything .. like which tube to use or replacement speakers .. no problem .. the designer still stands behind his designs and helped me out pronto. The story that Genz has no schematics or info on Tube works is just baloney, as they paid for the company they must have the documentation to go with their purchase.. peace out.
Click to expand...
Two Fingers said it well. The short version is that if @agedhorse tells you something in this forum, you can take it to the bank. Skepticism is a good thing generally but in this case, totally unwarranted. :thumbsup:
 
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#36
two fingers said:
OK, Dave. You haven't been here all that long so I'm going to put my rant aside and try to simply help you with some perspective. K?

Let's set 20 year old gadgets and their corresponding paperwork aside briefly and talk about people. You made this personal so I will to. You attacked the character of the guys at GB. Do this. Go to their profile pages. When you do that you can scroll through their posts they have put up as far back as you care to go. When you do that, you will find literally THOUSANDS of posts where they have helped out people in the community here. And not just with GB questions. They have offered advice to people trouble shooting other brands. They have offered up their expertise to people designing and altering their own projects. They have suggested gear that one might purchase that would serve their needs well (and not even brands they are affiliated with).

With all that in mind, how on earth could you draw the conclusion that they are somehow UNWILLING to help???? That is a ridiculous notion on its face. They don't get paid by TalkBass or anyone here who has benefitted from their advice. They are givers and helpers by nature. They are also bass gear enthusiasts just like we are!

So, please, stop and think about what you are typing. The very fact that BK Butler still has the old schematic laying around proves he didn't hand over every single document that ever was associated with his former company. You can't call anybody at Magnavox and get support for Ampeg amps they made. You can't call anybody at the current Acoustic and get support for any products they made in the past. Gibson isn't going to help you with an early Tobias.

And you sure aren't going to get any better FREE advice than you will find here from the likes of @agedhorse @line6man @B String and several others like them. (And apparently my grandfather was right. No good deed goes unpunished.)

You need help with a piece that is 20 years out of production made by a company that has been sold several times. It's not GB's fault. It's not BK Butler's fault. It's not anybody's fault. And it is no longer the legal or moral obligation for any of them to help you. But just understand that the guys formally associated with GB help people all the time. They don't ever refuse to help when they can. They DO stand by the products THEY designed....and even the ones they didn't if they are able to help. If they say they don't have the schematic and can't help, well then that simply is the case.

You have the right to be upset that your favorite piece of gear failed on you. You do not have the right to cast aspersions and make ginormous assumptions about the character of guys that help people here every day for free.

Now you are free to "peace out".
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
I didn't attack anybody .. I own a GB amp and love it just as much as I love my TW. The only thing I don't like about the BG is the way to bright blue Led .. other than that all is good. I am the second owner of the TW and it is in otherwise immaculate condition trying to find the right tube for it led me to GB and they didn't know .. Butler did and sent me one.
 
#37
two fingers said:
OK, Dave. You haven't been here all that long so I'm going to put my rant aside and try to simply help you with some perspective. K?

Let's set 20 year old gadgets and their corresponding paperwork aside briefly and talk about people. You made this personal so I will to. You attacked the character of the guys at GB. Do this. Go to their profile pages. When you do that you can scroll through their posts they have put up as far back as you care to go. When you do that, you will find literally THOUSANDS of posts where they have helped out people in the community here. And not just with GB questions. They have offered advice to people trouble shooting other brands. They have offered up their expertise to people designing and altering their own projects. They have suggested gear that one might purchase that would serve their needs well (and not even brands they are affiliated with).

With all that in mind, how on earth could you draw the conclusion that they are somehow UNWILLING to help???? That is a ridiculous notion on its face. They don't get paid by TalkBass or anyone here who has benefitted from their advice. They are givers and helpers by nature. They are also bass gear enthusiasts just like we are!



And you sure aren't going to get any better FREE advice than you will find here from the likes of @agedhorse @line6man @B String and several others like them. (And apparently my grandfather was right. No good deed goes unpunished.)

You need help with a piece that is 20 years out of production made by a company that has been sold several times. It's not GB's fault. It's not BK Butler's fault. It's not anybody's fault. And it is no longer the legal or moral obligation for any of them to help you. But just understand that the guys formally associated with GB help people all the time. They don't ever refuse to help when they can. They DO stand by the products THEY designed....and even the ones they didn't if they are able to help. If they say they don't have the schematic and can't help, well then that simply is the case.

You have the right to be upset that your favorite piece of gear failed on you. You do not have the right to cast aspersions and make ginormous assumptions about the character of guys that help people here every day for free.

Now you are free to "peace out".
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

The Genz people have been nothing but kind with their time and knowledge. We all have benefited from them being here. jmho
 
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#38
Dave Neal said:
I didn't attack anybody .. I own a GB amp and love it just as much as I love my TW. The only thing I don't like about the BG is the way to bright blue Led .. other than that all is good. I am the second owner of the TW and it is in otherwise immaculate condition trying to find the right tube for it led me to GB and they didn't know .. Butler did and sent me one.
Click to expand...

You said their story about having no schematics is "baloney". Where I'm from that's calling someone a liar which is a attacking their credibility. Maybe where you come from saying someone's story is baloney means something different? Educate me.
 

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