ON IT
Maybe that's another reason BBE Sound decided to shut down. Maybe they expected others would be winding up to ship MFD's.
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ON IT
Maybe that's another reason BBE Sound decided to shut down. Maybe they expected others would be winding up to ship MFD's.
Serious question - has anyone posted how they're made? I know James has stated that MIRC has all of the old equipment including the pickup winders. But has anyone actually documented how they're constructed?
I don't understand buying a company simply to let it vanish, and not capitalize from it in some way. G&L were not competitors despite the shared ancestry, so unless FMIC wanted something that G&L possessed, why even buy the company? Simply to gobble up anything tied to Leo's name? Buying a company to bury it? That's abhorrent.
G&L absolutely took some market share from Fender. They may not have competed on the same scale as Fender, but they definitely were competitors.
Getting the rights to Leo's name has value to FMIC. That is probably the main thing G&L possessed that they wanted. As soon as the sale was done, Leo's picture popped up on Fender's home page.
I think there are early conclusions about what Fender will/will not do with G&L in this thread. Give it some time to see if they do anything. Maybe they do nothing. Maybe they offer MFD pickups. Maybe (though certainly less likely) they do some G&L instruments in the future.
They did want something very much. They wanted Leo Fender's name, which G&L owned.
It also seems really clear that nobody is "burying" G&L. G&L was insolvent and was out of business - remember they locked the doors and nobody was working for almost a month while the owners tried to find buyers for what was left. The existing stock and parts went to MIRC, the Fender name, likeness rights, and Leo's office went to Fender. G&L was already dead when MIRC and Fender bought their assets. It's not Fender's fault G&L failed.
I don't even think anyone has reported whether or not the actual rights to build "G&L" basses and guitars were even transferred to Fender, which has been tight-lipped about the acquisition. I believe that James Gay (guy who ran their Custom Shop) has stated that he's not sure of the details of the deal. For all we know the McLarens might still own the brand.
That all said, if Fender did buy the brand, I would think it would make sense for them to wait a bit and relaunch the brand when they were ready to market it properly. After all, it's not like they can just immediately start manufacturing them. Fender would need to set up a new production line somewhere. CNCs need to be programmed, hardware has to be manufactured, etc.
It would also help to let interest build up.
Welcome to capitalism. This is bog standard practice. Buy competition, extract everything of value and dissolve + bury the brand. Hence just one of the reasons I do all I can to support small, independent businesses and in this case the original turned underdog.
@-Boscoe-
It is definitely partially Fender's fault. They were the biggest competition, along with just about every other company offering imitations and J, P, etc styled instruments.
Both brands required authorized dealers to buy and sell X or Y amount of instruments. Fender is omnipresent and most sales people aren't going to put up signs or explain the history and benefits of going with G&L. They're just trying to make a sale and people are walking in with the big name in mind. Most people are afraid of anything new or different. If they don't know the L stands for Leo Fender, they're going to be hesitant to even try a G&L. They're going to just pick up a few FMIC instruments and do whatever snob tests they've heard of and walk out.
It was pretty obvious that things were going downhill years ago when G&L started using off-shore Tribute electronics and Ping tuners in premium USA instruments. They banked too much on Leo Fender's legacy and that was their primary marketing campaign until it was too late. They were in enormous debt, and rather than focus on what they could do well and tighten the belt, they expanded models and opened a Custom Shop. Sure, they were building nice stuff at commensurate prices, but they weren't making the money they needed to pay the bills, let alone pay off the debt.
So they eventually went under. That was purely mismanagement, which Fender had nothing to do with. In an effort to at least pay some of their debts, they sold what the market was willing to purchase. Turns out that was some inventory and the rights to Leo Fender's likeness.
No boogie men or hostile corporate shenanigans put G&L out of their misery. That was the owners' own doing.
So they eventually went under. That was purely mismanagement, which Fender had nothing to do with. In an effort to at least pay some of their debts, they sold what the market was willing to purchase. Turns out that was some inventory and the rights to Leo Fender's likeness.
No boogie men or hostile corporate shenanigans put G&L out of their misery. That was the owners' own doing.
I think back to their instagram...
- Leo's lounge with stage, amps, drums, literal wall of G&L instruments. It was cool, but it probably cost more than it returned.
- Vintage Machine Shop tools; Cool, but were they using any of them or were they wasted cost that also took up space?
- SRT10 Ram shop truck; fun... not sure how cost effective it was as a shop truck.
These are just the obvious public investments that likely had bad ROI.
Also, does anyone really think that Fender would assume G&L's debt so they could put them out of business? I mean, it seems that some of you do think that, but it's not rational. If Fender, or anyone else, thought there was money to be made off G&L's long-expired patents (MFD patents expired at least a decade ago, or more), they could've jumped on that 10 years ago and put their own version on the market. It didn't happen then, and I seriously doubt they were willing to take on G&L's debt just so they could start now.
Leo's Lounge should have been a weekly session. Would have been a great netcast.
Showcase bands using G&L & BBE Sound products. Or, offer them at cost for appearing. Promote bands in the area or coming through. Put their links up on the screen and in the description.
They could've been doing weekly interviews with musicians and people in the scene -- think: sound guy using a Sonic Maximizer in the PA.
LL never picked up because it was so inconsistent. They rarely put anything out.
@lowfreqgeek
FMIC is owned by Servco Pacific. They're an investment firm. All they needed was some pencil pusher telling them they could make more money in the not too distant future.
FMIC bought and burried Genz Benz. Now Jeff is doing Genzler Amplification.
They have a very long history of doing this.
seriosity.com
Showcase bands using G&L & BBE Sound products. Or, offer them at cost for appearing. Promote bands in the area or coming through. Put their links up on the screen and in the description.
They could've been doing weekly interviews with musicians and people in the scene -- think: sound guy using a Sonic Maximizer in the PA.
LL never picked up because it was so inconsistent. They rarely put anything out.
@lowfreqgeek
FMIC is owned by Servco Pacific. They're an investment firm. All they needed was some pencil pusher telling them they could make more money in the not too distant future.
FMIC bought and burried Genz Benz. Now Jeff is doing Genzler Amplification.
They have a very long history of doing this.
What Companies Does Fender Own: A Comprehensive Look at Their Portfolio - Seriosity
You're likely familiar with the iconic brand of Fender, a company that has left an indelible mark on the music industry. Fender Musical Instruments Corporation is known worldwide for its top-tier electric guitars and amplifiers. But have you ever wondered what other companies are under Fender's...
seriosity.com
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Have you ever been involved in a corporate acquisition or received investment from a VC firm? They do far more due diligence than you can imagine if you haven't been involved. No one walks in and buys an insolvent business that's already defunct based on the advice of a "pencil pusher". That's just not how it works in the real world.@lowfreqgeek
FMIC is owned by Servco Pacific. They're an investment firm. All they needed was some pencil pusher telling them they could make more money in the not too distant future.
FMIC bought and burried Genz Benz. Now Jeff is doing Genzler Amplification.
They have a very long history of doing this.
What Companies Does Fender Own: A Comprehensive Look at Their Portfolio - Seriosity
You're likely familiar with the iconic brand of Fender, a company that has left an indelible mark on the music industry. Fender Musical Instruments Corporation is known worldwide for its top-tier electric guitars and amplifiers. But have you ever wondered what other companies are under Fender's...
In the case of Genz Benz (and I used GB going back as far as 2001), Fender didn't buy Genz Benz directly and shut them down immediately. Jeff Genzler sold GB to Kaman Music Corp in 2003, which was purchased by Fender in 2007. It then took another 6 years before Fender shut down GB. Whatever their reasons were, it wasn't to put the screws to them - they OWNED them for 6 years, and that was THE MOST successful time for Genz-Benz products. The Fender-era products were, IME, far better than the previous products.
You can say "they have a long history of doing this", but the "this" your referring to had a lot more layers than you are aware of and didn't happen the way you describe. The situation with G&L was absolutely nothing like Genz-Benz. They are irrelevant and dissimilar in every way.
@lowfreqgeek
Okay. I think there being a step between Genz Benz and FMIC is besides the point. They bought KMC. Either way, my point is they bought a brand.
From what I've heard people say, a few years later they began making amplifiers that sounded somewhat like what GB / KMC were offering.
The article I linked, which I read after writing the rest of my above post, details all the companies FMIC bought. That's their thing. They buy competition and smaller companies that they think have something to offer them.
I don't think it's hard to imagine FMIC was able to write the biggest check and that there weren't too many other parties interested in acquiring G&L/BBE S either. Unfortunately.
Okay. I think there being a step between Genz Benz and FMIC is besides the point. They bought KMC. Either way, my point is they bought a brand.
From what I've heard people say, a few years later they began making amplifiers that sounded somewhat like what GB / KMC were offering.
The article I linked, which I read after writing the rest of my above post, details all the companies FMIC bought. That's their thing. They buy competition and smaller companies that they think have something to offer them.
I don't think it's hard to imagine FMIC was able to write the biggest check and that there weren't too many other parties interested in acquiring G&L/BBE S either. Unfortunately.
G&L is gone, and with them, their instrument designs, at least for now. I own five G&L basses -- two USAs and three Tributes. Other companies have very similar designs. To me, it's the MFD pickups that set G&L instruments apart. IMO, the saddle lock bridge was more of a publicity stunt, as were the tuners that had a reverse taper on the shaft. The thing I miss the most about G&L are those MFD pickups. They are amazing bass pickups, and their guitar MFDs are great, too, especially the innovative Z-coils. Of course, all this is my opinion, which I acknowledge matters only to me.
I guess I'm not really sure what the protest here is about.
I agree. Either G&L products and designs will surface at some.point or they won't. As Darth Vader might say, speculation is futile.
I wasn't protesting. lol. Sorry if it came off like that. I wanted to clarify a point, mainly.
Totally agree their MFD's are the main point.
Z-coils aren't really anything too special. They're like P bass pickups but for guitar. Two coils in a stylish plastic enclosure wound a certain amount of times they thought suitable.
What sold me initially were the high output bi-coil, hum cancelling pickups and an active preamp with the EQ settings exactly where I wanted them. The MJ-4. I haven't seen anything quite like it. I guess the closest alternative would be active pickups and maybe running an EQ pedal with bigger settings.
I've found the build quality to be good as well. Only time mine have gone out of tune was when I rested or bumped a tuner against something. lol. I've only ever had to make the slightest adjustments after the initial set up with new tunings & strings.
About a decade ago, I loaned an MFD pickup from my L2500 to a friend who had a legit pickup building business. The patents had been expired for some time and he wanted to reverse engineer the L2500 pickups and see about offering a replacement. Unfortunately, that project didn't get off the ground before things went off the rails and he had to close shop for personal reasons. I never did get that pickup back, but I bought a replacement from the G&L store and it's been in the bass for a long time now.
Anyway, there's no reason besides the initial investment in tooling and NRE that someone couldn't start building MFD pickups based on those original patents. But I don't see anyone else picking up that mantle, and I know that it's not an insignificant investment. I can't imaging getting that off the ground for less that $50k (maybe more) by the time you pay for NRE, tooling, equiment, inventory, etc. I don't see that kind of investment being easily recouped in a timely manner.
Anyway, there's no reason besides the initial investment in tooling and NRE that someone couldn't start building MFD pickups based on those original patents. But I don't see anyone else picking up that mantle, and I know that it's not an insignificant investment. I can't imaging getting that off the ground for less that $50k (maybe more) by the time you pay for NRE, tooling, equiment, inventory, etc. I don't see that kind of investment being easily recouped in a timely manner.
Unless your setup costs are lower than that because you bought the equipment. I am holding out some hope that Mighty Mite starts winding MFDs. A reliable source on G&L claims they have the equipment to (my guess is that it might depend how well the existing inventory moves):
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I'm sorry to hear your friend never returned your pick up but, glad to hear you were able to buy a replacement.
I contacted G&L a year or two ago saying I wanted to order several of their jazz pickups to put in other basses. They told me they don't sell them for use in other brands.
What equipment are you talking about?
Here's a pickup winding machine for $600
Mojotone Pickup Coil Winding Machine
Build custom electric guitar pickups with the Mojotone Automatic Pickup Coil Winding Machine. Precision winding, digital controls & pro-level consistency.
www.mojotone.com
wire spool for $60. This'll make more than one set.
42-Ga Formvar Heavy Build Pickup Coil Wire 1/2 lb Spool
This is the highest quality pickup coil wire available. Perfect for repair and manufacturing. This is over 1/2 lb of vintage spec 42 ga. Heavy Formvar Min-Nom. This is the same type of wire that was most commonly used on vintage Fender pickups. 1/2 lb. will yield approximately seven single...
mojotone.com
Mojotone sells various other parts -- magnets, bobbins, etc, for $2-6 for the pieces I've seen. I admit that I haven't thoroughly put an order together. They also sell pickup kits for $12-34.
Mojotone Vintage Mini Humbucker Pickup Kit
An authentic Mini Humbucker replica kit using the highest quality materials available. Sorry no substitutions for different parts. If you need something different than what is offered in this kit, we sell all of our pickup parts individually for your convenience. Included....(1) 50mm Nickel...
mojotone.com
So, to me, it looks like it's quite possible to get off the ground with a handful of pickups to sell for <$1,000. For most adults without children, or otherwise are several years into the industry they have a dayjob in; for those who can spend $1,000-5,000 on a single instrument, I'd say dropping a few hundred on parts to make pickups is a non-issue.
Granted, I have not yet sourced other specs for other DIY pickups. I'm sure there are companies out there willing to cut the metal into different sizes and magnetize what you want. I don't know what the minimum order would be. Considering Mojotone is selling pieces at markup for $6, unless the minimum order is 1k, this is not out of reach. I suspect 100 units would be likely.
Okay, 50 pairs of pickups in that scenario. Make a few one offs of any type as proof of concept to show legitimacy. Then start crowd funding and open preorders.
The expensive parts are networking, stocking gross amounts of inventory, storage space, paying somebody else to build a website (DIY is cheap!), and most of all: advertising. Any established business has everything in place already.
What do you mean by "NRE" here? First thing that comes to me is something presumably unrelated to this. lol.
I think the only reason nobody else has started is that there isn't enough demand for it. I think most of us have been fairly loyal to G&L thus far. We simply seek out their instruments if we want that sound. Too few ask other companies to do it.
Didn't take me much time using DuckDuckGo web search to find a good list of G&L tech:
and specifically the MFD patent from the above:
https://www.freepatentsonline.com/4220069.pdf
Here's a video of DTT where he takes apart a wide MFD from an ASAT guitar. He talks about the magnet, materials, winding, sizes, etc.
Contrary to what I said above, people do ask him about this. I think I heard him say somewhere (not in this video) that if people want something like these, just to reach out and he'll do them custom. No idea what his bass pickups are like.
