- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,493
- 1,270
- Disclosures
- Owner, Stand Up Guy Basses (Repair/Sell/Buy upright basses)
Yep, Lie-Neilsen has a clever design, using double-sided carbide inserts for plane blades…
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Double Bass Gaiatone Fingerboards
- Thread starter Sean Peters
- Start date
There is more than one reason to prefer a synthetic product over an increasingly rare natural one. And, speaking as the owner of an EV, there is are good reasons why I prefer my EV to a gas car besides the cost of charging versus the cost of gas.
To stay on topic, I think there's value to reducing the pressure on increasingly endangered woods. Lower demand for them reduces the likelihood of poaching or poor forestry management. It also pushes technical boundaries, which may have long term benefits, as it encourages innovation.
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Less reliance on endangered woods is always a good thing IMO
I'll mention this though, just food for thought...
As much as I want to preserve natural resources, sometimes making a synthetic replacement for natural materials costs more in other natural resources and in damage to the ecology, and requires more energy dependent technology than growing and harvesting the original material would. Just finding a man-made replacement for natural materials is not enough. Analyzing all the resources involved is key to really finding echo-safe solutions.
Epoxies and other rather echo-toxic materials are required for most of the composites that we're talking about here. What are the sources of those materials and how are they synthesized? Pressure is also required for the laminate process; how is that provided? What raw materials are needed for tooling, and where do those raw materials come from? How much fuel or electricity is required to make and run the tools involved? What bi-products are produced and how are they disposed of? These are just a few examples.
If we're serious about preservation, this analysis needs to go a long way.
As much as I want to preserve natural resources, sometimes making a synthetic replacement for natural materials costs more in other natural resources and in damage to the ecology, and requires more energy dependent technology than growing and harvesting the original material would. Just finding a man-made replacement for natural materials is not enough. Analyzing all the resources involved is key to really finding echo-safe solutions.
Epoxies and other rather echo-toxic materials are required for most of the composites that we're talking about here. What are the sources of those materials and how are they synthesized? Pressure is also required for the laminate process; how is that provided? What raw materials are needed for tooling, and where do those raw materials come from? How much fuel or electricity is required to make and run the tools involved? What bi-products are produced and how are they disposed of? These are just a few examples.
If we're serious about preservation, this analysis needs to go a long way.
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- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,493
- 1,270
- Disclosures
- Owner, Stand Up Guy Basses (Repair/Sell/Buy upright basses)
Oops, the company making these is vrichelieu, found here: vrichelieu.com. Looks like they make them for the LN 102, 103 and 60 ½ planes. They’re highly recommended by the folks at Shen (who do a LOT of setup work).
Unless you're looking into the supply chain of everything else that goes into making your bass, then this is just concern trolling. In their ad copy, Gaiatone states pretty plainly what materials they use. I won't repeat it here because they don't pay me. The task of looking at what tooling they use for their machines is well beyond what a regular consumer is capable of, or willing, or should be expected to do. Please report back if you find anything scandalous, and I will be willing to listen then.
@Opus_Pocus, I'd love to see the GaiaTone ad copy you refer to. Where is that available? They don't appear to have a website, or at least I cannot find one.
Note: If the Strad page is what you're referring to as ad copy, I'd like more details directly from the manufacturer.
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Hey everyone, just wanted to give you an update. I got my bass back yesterday, I went with the Gaiatone fingerboard! The bass ended up needing a lot more work than I expected, and it feels like a different instrument that I am slowly getting to know. I can give you my first impressions regarding the fingerboard.
No dressing was given to the top of the board, material was only removed from the sides to match the profile of the neck. The Joey Naeger specs from the manufacturer seem to be working just fine for a gut string setup (for me!). The only issue I notice is a buzz on the open G string when doing a single slap pull.
The new fingerboard is much more curved than the older one, so I want to give myself some time to adjust my technique before worrying about dressing. I bumped the action up just a tad, and this is helping. As well as more curvature in the fingerboard, it's obviously a lot thicker and heavier, so the feel of the neck is completely different, but not unpleasant. Glad to have my bass back, and am happy and optimistic about the changes and improvements!
No dressing was given to the top of the board, material was only removed from the sides to match the profile of the neck. The Joey Naeger specs from the manufacturer seem to be working just fine for a gut string setup (for me!). The only issue I notice is a buzz on the open G string when doing a single slap pull.
The new fingerboard is much more curved than the older one, so I want to give myself some time to adjust my technique before worrying about dressing. I bumped the action up just a tad, and this is helping. As well as more curvature in the fingerboard, it's obviously a lot thicker and heavier, so the feel of the neck is completely different, but not unpleasant. Glad to have my bass back, and am happy and optimistic about the changes and improvements!
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If my experience with a new FB is representative, the extra thickness will be good for your left hand, and the stiffer neck will be good for sound.
Ipe is used for decking, is really dense/hard, nasty splinters, you can shape w/a block plane, readily available from lumber yards. It's reddish not black. Hardness: Ipe has a Janka hardness score of 16,390 N. Ebony wood has a Janka hardness of 3,220 pounds-force (lbf) or 14,300 newtons (N).
keiranhohara
Commercial User
- May 27, 2018
- 24
- 65
- Disclosures
- Luthier at O'Hara Fine Instruments
Ipe and Cumaru Added to CITES Endangered Species List » Robi Decking
Ipe has been added to the CITES endangered species list. Here's what that means and what the future holds for sustainable hardwood.
robidecking.com
An interesting video about alternatives for ebony, presented by Elinore Morris, who has been interested in this topic for some time and is looking for alternatives...
Kathy Reilly from Vemont Violins talks about this topic with Elinore...
Kathy Reilly from Vemont Violins talks about this topic with Elinore...
Well, I don't know the details, and the devil's in the details, but ebony trees of sufficient size to make quality bass fingerboards take many years to grow, and they only grow in certain places (mostly NOT in the developed world); so I'd submit that there's reason beyond a pure energy balance comparison or total waste produced analysis, to keep from cutting them all down.
An extreme example might be bush meat - it may well be more expensive and environmentally costly for people currently relying on bush meat to eat chickens and hogs; but on the other hand, the chance of virulent pandemic viruses crossing over from the common meat species is much lower than for the exotics (Monkeys and apes in particular).
I wonder if using the Joey Nager spec'd GaiaTone board would be better than routing in a CF neck reinforcement rod and replacement ebony board?
I have no experience with alternative-material fingerboards for violin-family instruments, but I do own two Martin guitars with Richlite fingerboards, which, like gaiatone, are made of paper and a resin matrix.
One of those instruments has been in heavy use for six years, and the board appears new. Martin assured me that no special tools will be required for a refret and the material feels quite like ebony. Proof’s in the pudding.
One of those instruments has been in heavy use for six years, and the board appears new. Martin assured me that no special tools will be required for a refret and the material feels quite like ebony. Proof’s in the pudding.
Hi everyone, I have an update for you all! After giving myself about a year to live with the new fingerboard, I decided to make some changes. When I replaced the board, I was using a gut setup with wound A and E. While this is still my preferred setup, the various hassles (and expense) of dealing with the lower strings has me rethinking things.
I noticed a lot of string noise around the neck heel, and Robbie McIntosh informed me it was likely due to a lack of scoop in the fingerboard. The boards come pre-dressed with about 1mm of scoop, which is good for steel strings, but might not be optimal for gut strings. He increased the scoop to a little over 2mm, and that cleaned up the string noise at the heel. He also raised the bridge slightly, the G is around 10-11mm.
Since I'm pursuing a mixed gut/steel setup, and I've read that Haden and others with a similar setup did a similar thing, he lowered the height of the bridge under the A and E strings. I think the E string is a similar height to the G. I'm using Spiro Solos for the A and E, and it feels comfortable. Might try Weichs to see how that feels.
Another big change is that I had Robbie bevel the edges of the fingerboard more, so there's less of a sharp corner there. Feels great for both hands!
The only thing that wasn't able to be solved by setup work was the issue I mentioned earlier, about a string rattle on the open G when doing a slap. Robbie offered to try increasing the scoop, but I declined, since there were already so many changes made, I want to give it some time. This fingerboard is much more curved than the original, and I've noticed already that if I alter the angle I'm pulling the string, so that the string hits the board more vertically, the rattle doesn't happen. Slapping doesn't make up a huge percentage of my playing, but that open G is important!
All in all, I'm happy with the changes so far, let me know if you have any questions.
I noticed a lot of string noise around the neck heel, and Robbie McIntosh informed me it was likely due to a lack of scoop in the fingerboard. The boards come pre-dressed with about 1mm of scoop, which is good for steel strings, but might not be optimal for gut strings. He increased the scoop to a little over 2mm, and that cleaned up the string noise at the heel. He also raised the bridge slightly, the G is around 10-11mm.
Since I'm pursuing a mixed gut/steel setup, and I've read that Haden and others with a similar setup did a similar thing, he lowered the height of the bridge under the A and E strings. I think the E string is a similar height to the G. I'm using Spiro Solos for the A and E, and it feels comfortable. Might try Weichs to see how that feels.
Another big change is that I had Robbie bevel the edges of the fingerboard more, so there's less of a sharp corner there. Feels great for both hands!
The only thing that wasn't able to be solved by setup work was the issue I mentioned earlier, about a string rattle on the open G when doing a slap. Robbie offered to try increasing the scoop, but I declined, since there were already so many changes made, I want to give it some time. This fingerboard is much more curved than the original, and I've noticed already that if I alter the angle I'm pulling the string, so that the string hits the board more vertically, the rattle doesn't happen. Slapping doesn't make up a huge percentage of my playing, but that open G is important!
All in all, I'm happy with the changes so far, let me know if you have any questions.
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Zen-Wu also makes a specialty blade; dovetailed vanadium PM into a titanium body. Definitely not cheap, but harder than m42 or m2 cryo... If you're willing to go that far. It's also a bit harder on natural whetstones, but ceramics like Shapton glass backed do well enough.
