Gaining speed for fast groove and string crossing...

[addicted]

Hi people, I have questions regarding my technique. I have learned bass for 5 years without teacher and using books or youtube videos. So while I am able to read up theory and imitate how people do it on youtube, I might miss small details needed to execute a certain technique.

1. Gaining speed for fast groove
I know that normally we would isolate that song's part which we have trouble with and practice it starting from slowest tempo up to the desired speed. At the same time, we would be watching consciously what our fingers are doing and keep practicing until our muscle memorize it. Using this theory I manage to do it but problem is my finger seems to 'forget it' the next day and I have to warm up again before I can execute the lick well. How can we retain that speed that we have obtained without having to warm up again? Also, when you practice til you feel 'comfortable', how do you define that 'comfortable' stage?

I will take Jackson's 5 I Want You Back for example. It's hard for me to execute that "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick groove. (I hope you guys know what I am talking about here)

2.String crossing
This might be basic but I wonder how you do string crossing for different strings at the same fret moving upward to make a legato sound? For same-fret string-crossing moving downward (ie. 3rd fret of E-string to 3rd fret of A-string), I can fret using same finger by using 'finger-rolling' or 'finger-flattening'. But for same-fret string-crossing moving upward (ie. 3rd fret of A-string to 3rd fret of E-string), I cannot do it at fast tempo without sounding staccato.

 

[SteveCS]

To your second question...

I used to struggle with the same problem. On fretless bass, which I have played pretty much since day 1, i never liked to barre as it messed with intonation. When I learned Stick left hand technique for playing each note with a different finger I found I could transfer that to BG. It involves playing, say C at the third fret with finger 2 or 3 and G at the same fret with finger 3, 2 or 1 depending on what comes next, but never the same finger. As an exercise, try F with 1, C with 3 and G with 2 and back again. Then extend to F1(1) C1(3) G1(2) E2(1) G2(4) and back. Try to avoid jerky movements and let your hand roll smoothly up and down without too much thumb pressure. It might feel a bit awkward to begin with, but it is a very fluent approach once you get your head around it. It allows you to keep each note ringing as you prepare for the next one, leading to a very legato style using just the tips of your fingers.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

....1. Gaining speed for fast groove
......but problem is my finger seems to 'forget it' the next day and I have to warm up again before I can execute the lick well. How can we retain that speed that we have obtained without having to warm up again? Also, when you practice til you feel 'comfortable', how do you define that 'comfortable' stage?

To play fast you have to listen fast. If you ear is not hearing every note you end up hearing a blur and you get lost. Train your ear to hear every note. If you can not hear every note, slow down. Speed up when you can.

I will take Jackson's 5 I Want You Back for example. It's hard for me to execute that "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick groove. (I hope you guys know what I am talking about here).

2.String crossing
This might be basic but I wonder how you do string crossing for different strings at the same fret moving upward to make a legato sound? For same-fret string-crossing moving downward (ie. 3rd fret of E-string to 3rd fret of A-string), I can fret using same finger by using 'finger-rolling' or 'finger-flattening'. But for same-fret string-crossing moving upward (ie. 3rd fret of A-string to 3rd fret of E-string), I cannot do it at fast tempo without sounding staccato.

I use the major scale box. I visualize that box all up and down my fretboard, i.e. C at the 3rd string 3 fret, again at the 4th string 8th fret and again at the 3rd string 15th fret.

That "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick on the major scale box is R-R-b3-4-b2. It's not a big deal. Warning if you use the box you start thinking in A, B, C's and generic 1, 2, 3's. Good thing about a generic lick, it can be taken into what ever key you need it in.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers and the root note on the 4th string.
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
You have seen this pattern with just dots. Dots are OK, but add the numbers and the numbers become specific notes.

After running the major scale R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 in the box for a zillion times crossing strings will not be a problem. The natural minor scale would be R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8, the major pentatonic would be R-2-3-5-6-8, Cmaj7 chord would be R-3-5-7, etc.

Good luck.

 

[addicted]

To play fast you have to listen fast. If you ear is not hearing every note you end up hearing a blur and you get lost. Train your ear to hearing fast.


I use the major scale box. I visualize that box all up and down my fretboard, i.e. C at the 3rd string 3 fret, again at the 4th string 8th fret and again at the 3rd string 15th fret.

That "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick on the major scale box is R-R-b3-4-b2. It's not a big deal. Warning if you use the box you start thinking in A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers and the root note on the 4th string.
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
You have seen this pattern with just dots. Dots are OK, but add the numbers and the numbers become specific notes.

After running the major scale R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 in the box for a zillion times crossing strings will not be a problem. The natural minor scale would be R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8, the major pentatonic would be R-2-3-5-6-8, Cmaj7 chord would be R-3-5-7, etc.

Good luck.

Thanks Malcolm. Though, that I Want You Back lick is the example for my first question. I have no problem doing string crossing for that lick. I have problem executing it at the original speed comfortably without feeling rushed or tense. That I Want You Back song is at Key of G#. That "C - C - Eb - F - C#" comes right after the first note G# (or Ab).

 

[bholder]

To your second question...

I used to struggle with the same problem. On fretless bass, which I have played pretty much since day 1, i never liked to barre as it messed with intonation. When I learned Stick left hand technique for playing each note with a different finger I found I could transfer that to BG. It involves playing, say C at the third fret with finger 2 or 3 and G at the same fret with finger 3, 2 or 1 depending on what comes next, but never the same finger. As an exercise, try F with 1, C with 3 and G with 2 and back again. Then extend to F1(1) C1(3) G1(2) E2(1) G2(4) and back. Try to avoid jerky movements and let your hand roll smoothly up and down without too much thumb pressure. It might feel a bit awkward to begin with, but it is a very fluent approach once you get your head around it. It allows you to keep each note ringing as you prepare for the next one, leading to a very legato style using just the tips of your fingers.

So almost like chording, but playing each note individually?

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I would play that "C-C- Eb-F-C#" line with the C under my index finger so you play the Eb on the 6th fret and F is the only note on the D string and that C# would fall right under your middle finger way easier than trying the play it with the pinky with the C under your ring finger.

I hope this make sense

 

[TomLawrence]

I use the major scale box. I visualize that box all up and down my fretboard, i.e. C at the 3rd string 3 fret, again at the 4th string 8th fret and again at the 3rd string 15th fret.

That "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick on the major scale box is R-R-b3-4-b2. It's not a big deal.

Malcolm - I think this just changed my life. This was a blinding flash of the obvious that I wish I would have keyed in on 20 years ago.

Tom

 

[bholder]

To play fast you have to listen fast. If you ear is not hearing every note you end up hearing a blur and you get lost. Train your ear to hearing fast.


I use the major scale box. I visualize that box all up and down my fretboard, i.e. C at the 3rd string 3 fret, again at the 4th string 8th fret and again at the 3rd string 15th fret.

That "C - C - Eb - F - C#" lick on the major scale box is R-R-b3-4-b2. It's not a big deal. Warning if you use the box you start thinking in A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers and the root note on the 4th string.
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
You have seen this pattern with just dots. Dots are OK, but add the numbers and the numbers become specific notes.

After running the major scale R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 in the box for a zillion times crossing strings will not be a problem. The natural minor scale would be R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8, the major pentatonic would be R-2-3-5-6-8, Cmaj7 chord would be R-3-5-7, etc.

Good luck.

I do the same thing, but I use the minor scale box (for the relative minor if major key) mostly. Same thing though.

 

[SteveCS]

So almost like chording, but playing each note individually?

Pretty much, yes. The thing with the Stick is that the note is both fingered and triggered by the tap, so to play a legato run of the notes at the same fret (regardless of string) you play with fingering like, for example, 2-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-2, moving the 'current' finger out of the way just in time for the next one to hit the same spot. The fingering technique, which is built on a series of rudiments, ensures that you don't get 'trapped' into having to play any consecutive note with the same finger. I found that I was adapting the fingering for use on bass and it gave me greater fluency than having to constantly change hand/finger posture to accommodate the barre. Of course as with all of these things, YMMV!

 

[TedH]

Don't watch what your fingers are doing, listen to what your fingers are doing. Your ears matter more and will lead you to better time and precision.

"I want you back" is a good finger dexterity exercise for all 4 fingers and takes some time to get that down. You are smart to play slow, and I would add that play it slow with your eyes closed so that your ears tune in to the quality of the note (timing, fret buzz, not playing full duration notes, etc), then speed it up slowly.

By the way, the opening riff is not 2 C's after the Ab, but B slurring to C then up to the Eb/F/Db portion. Nice little chromatic approach note.

 

[AMp'D.2play]

+1 to the comments by @TedH. Not only is it a great song, but it'll give your fretting fingers a workout. (The opening riff could probably be used as a great fretting & string crossing etude.) The key is Ab Major and I fret the opening Ab with my pinky with the other notes falling under my fingers on frets 1-4 using OFPF.

However, for a great lesson on this song, check out Invalid Link Removed of it. He starts the opening riff with the "textbook" Major scale position of the middle finger on the root (Ab) and then shifts up to the Eb on the A string with his pinky instead of going down to the 1st fret and grabbing that note with the index finger on the D string. You may find that method easier. The lesson is also fantastic in that Scott explains the song from a harmonic standpoint.

 

[addicted]

What about speed for that Jackson 5's I Want You Back song? I can execute the lick with proper groove at slower tempo. Not much slower but not at the original's song tempo. Tried to practice it over and over again until I can execute at original tempo.

The next day, I still have to train or warm up my finger before I can execute it again. It's like my practice effort that I put in does not retain.

 

[addicted]

To your second question...

I used to struggle with the same problem. On fretless bass, which I have played pretty much since day 1, i never liked to barre as it messed with intonation. When I learned Stick left hand technique for playing each note with a different finger I found I could transfer that to BG. It involves playing, say C at the third fret with finger 2 or 3 and G at the same fret with finger 3, 2 or 1 depending on what comes next, but never the same finger. As an exercise, try F with 1, C with 3 and G with 2 and back again. Then extend to F1(1) C1(3) G1(2) E2(1) G2(4) and back. Try to avoid jerky movements and let your hand roll smoothly up and down without too much thumb pressure. It might feel a bit awkward to begin with, but it is a very fluent approach once you get your head around it. It allows you to keep each note ringing as you prepare for the next one, leading to a very legato style using just the tips of your fingers.

I'll try to practice this method. I found another method by Ariane Cap from Notreble.com. She 'slides' her fingertips across the same fret to reach the adjacent string. Still not sure which method suits me best because both still feels awkward.

 

[SteveCS]

I'll try to practice this method. I found another method by Ariane Cap from Notreble.com. She 'slides' her fingertips across the same fret to reach the adjacent string. Still not sure which method suits me best because both still feels awkward.

You know I looked a bit more closely once I had a chance to get to my bass and actually analyse things a bit more. I do that tip-slipping thing from time to time - never 'learned' it - it just happens. I also use the barre on fretted bass rather more than I do on fretless, although even there I do it more on fretless than I had at first thought and seemingly only in higher registers. Again it just seems to have slipped into my overall approach. I guess I've just learned a whole load of techniques over the years and now I just subconsciously mix and match according to needs.

So with the benefit of 30 yrs hindsight, perhaps my advice would be to not choose one over the other, just learn and practice them all a little from time to time and use whichever works best for you in a given line or part - I'll guarantee it won't be the best for other lines or parts so the more tools you have...

 

[enricogaletta]

Horizontal and vertical crossing are the keys for both of your questions.
You don't need to study thousand technique exercises, but is also true that is vital develop a good right hand technique.
Is the key to play fast grooves especially when those involve several different strings, index and middle perfectly alternated are more than enough, and, your left hand need to be solid and follow the right, as well a perfect independence on all four finger is the must, so for this reason the horizontal great for the left and vertical for the right.
Than just a series of fingering exercise on arpeggio inversions and interval and than, you ready to go.
If you play these three family exercise from 60 to 140 bpm, than you'll be ready to face any kind of groove or difficult piece
Let me know if you need more help.
Ciao

 

[addicted]

I am loving the advice so far everybody. If there is any, keep them coming.

My question and issues are probably very basic for great bassist here but I believe in getting all these basic finger dexterity techniques really proper in order to graduate to next level of playing.

 

[Dug2]

Spend as much time with your bass as possible, my answer in short is it just happens with practice.

 

[SteveCS]

I am loving the advice so far everybody. If there is any, keep them coming.

My question and issues are probably very basic for great bassist here but I believe in getting all these basic finger dexterity techniques really proper in order to graduate to next level of playing.

I posted a little challenge in the 'should I use my pinky' thread... You might want to give it a try...

In fact, WTH, here it is again... The idea is to play using a different finger for each consecutive note - no barres or slides...