GBE1200 Power Ratings...

[JGR]

I was reading the first installment of Bass Gear Mag (most excellent, well done!) and they have a great technical section where they measure a lot of the specs of the amps they review. Reviewed in the first issue were the LMII, M6 Carbine, and GBE1200.

The measured versus claimed power for the LMII was within reason, the Mesa was almost conservative.... but the GBE1200appears to be quite overstated. I realize that there are different ways a manufacturer may test to come up with specs, but seeing as the other two were more in the ballpark, I think it's a little suprising. I would feel a bit mislead and cheated if I purchased an amp and the delta was that big. Anyone else see the new issue yet and care to comment?

JR

 

[KJung]

I've posted on this already (the overall coolness of the bench tests!). Very impressive magazine.

Yeah, the overall 4ohm power, and especially that power dropoff in the low end at a reasonable THD for the massive 1200 is less than impressive IMO. The LMII and Mesa are quite even all the way down to the open B range, and reasonably close to their published power ratings.

I love when real data supports what I hear in the real world! I look forward to other amps being tested. I think they are going to do the Carvin B1500 next issue, and I suspect that will look VERY good on the scope. I'd love to see the Walter Woods Ultra put under the scope. My guess is, that would also come out 'disappointing' versus the published spec, especially in the below 40hz region.

I am really impressed with this magazine! Tom and the team did a bang up job!

Did you notice that the LMII review was done by TB's Vic!

 

[buffordbass]

Well it's a good thing the 1200 isn't any louder or I wouldn't be able to hear for days after a gig. My ears ring til the next morning now when we get crazy loud!!
Any "numbers" report is just that... I say let your ears decide on the sound. I choose Genz Benz!!

 

[RickenBoogie]

Interesting to say the least. I always knew my Mesa amp was at least as powerful as it's rated, but I'd also be disappointed with the Genz with those results. That's something you can actually hear without the technical analysis to back it up.

 

[KJung]

Interesting to say the least. I always knew my Mesa amp was at least as powerful as it's rated, but I'd also be disappointed with the Genz with those results. That's something you can actually hear without the technical analysis to back it up.

+1.. the Mesa heads just sound so wonderfully big down low, and the data back it up. Very impressive.

 

[KJung]

Well it's a good thing the 1200 isn't any louder or I wouldn't be able to hear for days after a gig. My ears ring til the next morning now when we get crazy loud!!
Any "numbers" report is just that... I say let your ears decide on the sound. I choose Genz Benz!!

But what about getting similar volume and more bottom in less than half the size and weight, or even a third the weight and a fifth of the size?

 

[kraigo]

I'd be interested in knowing how the Shuttle 6.0 scopes out. In the end I don't suppose it really matters to me. It's got enough power.

KO

 

[kaiser_sosea]

so this drop in power below 40hz, is that something that can be augmented w/ eq? just asking as i have a NeoPak which i believe shares a preamp w/ the 1200, i love the tone but am looking for ways to make it sound a bit more beefy, could be my mid forward Avatar cab?
And to Tom and all the people who worked on it, wonderful magazine, read it cover to cover and can't wait for the next installment. You've really outdone yourselves.

 

[Frankie Fender]

I gigged a GBE1200 for many months and my experience agrees that there wasn't much 'oomph' in the lower register when set flat, yet it could be dialed in. Depends on the cabs you are running it through too.

 

[vision]

so this drop in power below 40hz, is that something that can be augmented w/ eq?

IMO and IME, no. If you boost the eq in that low frequency range, you will end up draining more power from the amp, while getting a generally more muddy sound.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

I would love to see the shuttle on the scope too. My suspiscion is that it will be much lower than the LMII.

Thats what my ears tell me. It DOES sound great though.

 

[Frankie Fender]

IMO and IME, no. If you boost the eq in that low frequency range, you will end up draining more power from the amp, while getting a generally more muddy sound.

Got to disagree, that head has a lot of reserve power. I never approached its limits. Granted, the sound to my ears was too polite and didn't have the high current punch of say, GK or Mesa, but I would not question its overall volume, and like I said with some extreme EQing I think you can get it to sound pretty low.

 

[KJung]

Got to disagree, that head has a lot of reserve power. I never approached its limits. Granted, the sound to my ears was too polite and didn't have the high current punch of say, GK or Mesa, but I would not question its overall volume, and like I said with some extreme EQing I think you can get it to sound pretty low.

Tom Bowlus just clarified in another thread that the extreme low end rolloff seems to be due more to the pre voicing than to a lack of reserve in the absolute power of the amp. It's just such a strange looking result, and matches what I hear in, quite frankly, the entire line-up of their amps (which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your tone goal).

 

[JGR]

Well it's a good thing the 1200 isn't any louder or I wouldn't be able to hear for days after a gig. My ears ring til the next morning now when we get crazy loud!!
Any "numbers" report is just that... I say let your ears decide on the sound. I choose Genz Benz!!

My point is that it shouldn't be marketed as a 1200 W amp when it isn't even close.... would you have even considered it for the price you paid if it was speced as a 500W amp? I think not...

 

[JGR]

Tom Bowlus just clarified in another thread that the extreme low end rolloff seems to be due more to the pre voicing than to a lack of reserve in the absolute power of the amp. It's just such a strange looking result, and matches what I hear in, quite frankly, the entire line-up of their amps (which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your tone goal).

Even with the low frequency power rolloff aside, the overall power was pretty weak across the board compared to what the amp is marketed as having.

 

[sevenorchids]

Tom's full comment below. Not sure why it was in that thread and not this one.

With regard to the GBE 1200, I'd like to point out a couple of things you might miss if you just look at the specs. First off, the very low wattage output on our 'B-string' fundamental test is the result of an intentional roll-off in their preamp and no fault of the output section. You can see this on the charts.

Second, the GBE 1200 is designed with maximum dynamic power in mind. It has more output transistors than most amps in its class, and it is a high-current design. We didn't end up reporting dynamic power or current capabilities because we did not want to overwhelm people (and to be honest, we only have so much space for all this information). Our tests are done using a resistive load (which is the more or less standard method), versus a reactive load (which is how G-B does their testing, I believe). So, their claimed wattage/power numbers may very well hold true if you are talking dynamic power into a reactive load. But again, we chose to use the more commonly-used resistive load testing method.

With regard to that high-current, high dynamic headroom design, you really can hear this in actual use. The LMII is a killer, killer little head, but if you crank them both to moderate to high volumes, and then slap/pop or do anything that demands a lot of dynamic output, you can definitely hear what the GBE 1200 brings to the table.

I try to warn about taking specs out of context, and the GBE 1200 is pretty much the poster child for this warning. It's performance in actual use exceeds what you might expect by perusing just those published specs. Now, Ken is absolutely right with regard to how you hear the low end. That rolloff is pretty noticeable, but again, it's an intentional design. Just for kicks, I took a couple of other preamps and ran them into the Power Amp In on the GBE 1200, and let me tell you, that output section has plenty to offer down low!

But yes, the specs were very interesting. The LMII held up pretty well, the M6 Carbine showed very impressive output (and is quite fairly rated), and the M-300 was true to its goal of ruler-flat response (and their published output numbers were dead-on with what we measured).

These specs are a lot of fun, and hopefully at least somewhat useful. But I cannot stress enough the importance of putting them into a useable context and trusting your own ears.

Tom.

Saying it's not a 1200W amp is just wrong.

 

[vision]

Got to disagree, that head has a lot of reserve power. I never approached its limits. Granted, the sound to my ears was too polite and didn't have the high current punch of say, GK or Mesa, but I would not question its overall volume, and like I said with some extreme EQing I think you can get it to sound pretty low.

That makes sense on the 1200, but I was responding to Kaiser about his Neo Pack - which I doubt has the reserves to handle extreme EQing in the low end.

 

[KJung]

Tom's full comment below. Not sure why it was in that thread and not this one.

As talked about above, still kind of strange that a huge, heavy, three space amp like that 'tests out' at only about a hundred watts more than the LMII, and actually less than the two space Mesa amp

I think it's good to discuss this. I am not aligned with any amp company and have no dog in this hunt, but when some of the Genz endorsee's where talking about these amps has having all that massive punch, and the 6.0 being the 'first micro head with real balls' etc. a while back, I was like 'whaa???' given what I heard. Nice units, but to my ear, underpowered compared to similarly sized competition, and even with EQ, somewhat attenuated deep down low. That is not necessarily a bad thing given your tone goals, of course.

 

[JGR]

Tom's full comment below. Not sure why it was in that thread and not this one.



Saying it's not a 1200W amp is just wrong.

If dynamic power is their thing, cool, then market it like the Marshall DBS amps were - 400 watts RMS with up to 4000 peak or whatever it was... my GK2001 is 1080 RMS in to 4 ohms... by GBE standards this would be what, 2000W?

 

[Frankie Fender]

That makes sense on the 1200, but I was responding to Kaiser about his Neo Pack - which I doubt has the reserves to handle extreme EQing in the low end.

Sorry, I read it differently. I thought since he said that he shared the same preamp, the thought was still focused on the 1200, which is the subject of the thread. My bad.