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GC employees unionizing...

I disagree entirely. Things have gotten worse for the American middle class as union membership has declined (read: been forcibly dismantled).

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Just because these things happened at the same time that does NOT mean they are linked. Where is the proof that decrease in union membership CAUSED the changes in income of those two classes? Thousands of factors could have come into play to cause those results. Prove they are connected.

I can claim that because I forgot to brush my teeth this morning and didn't have a wreck on the way to work that bad dental hygiene = safer driving conditions. This claim would have every bit as much credibility as yours unless you prove otherwise.
 
Just because these things happened at the same time that does NOT mean they are linked. Where is the proof that decrease in union membership CAUSED the changes in income of those two classes? Thousands of factors could have come into play to cause those results. Prove they are connected.

I can claim that because I forgot to brush my teeth this morning and didn't have a wreck on the way to work that bad dental hygiene = safer driving conditions. This claim would have every bit as much credibility as yours unless you prove otherwise.

Correlation vs. causation. Fair enough.

What if we could somehow show that union employees earn more than their non-union equivalent?

Unions-Wages-Union-vs.-Nonunion1.jpg


With more union employees, there'd be more people that were earning middle class income as opposed to working class pay, no?
 
You've asked Unrepresented to prove something that is essentially unprovable. Not because the one variable did not cause the other, but because causation simply does not exist. If we could manipulate one variable while leaving all others constant we could ‘prove’ that a rise in one variable seems to occur simultaneously with a reduction in the other variable. That is as close as we can get to establishing causation which, as I say, in an objective sense does not really exist. When a cue ball strikes a numbered ball and the numbered ball starts moving, we think the cue ball caused the motion. But really, all we have is two events that seem to regularly, reliably, occur one after the other. We still have not found causation. What we have found is convention.

In any case, the real wages (adjusted for inflation) of hourly employees have been falling for many decades. No credible economist would suggest otherwise. In that same period, union affiliation has fallen. These variables are, without a doubt, strongly correlated. I would not expect a rise in wages to ‘cause’ a rise in union affiliation. However, a reasonable person might expect a rise in affiliation to be correlated with a rise in wages. That connection is certainly not counter-intuitive.

Given the brute fact that real wages and union affiliation are strongly correlated, I wonder if you can offer a reason we should dismiss the theory that affiliation affects wages. Particularly in light of data which regularly shows that union workers’ wages are almost invariably higher than those of non-union workers who perform the same tasks.
 
I think the rise in earth temps correlate pretty well with the decline in union affiliation, don't they?

Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Venkman: Why?
Spengler: It would be bad.
Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
 
I think the rise in earth temps correlate pretty well with the decline in union affiliation, don't they?

Yes indeed. This obvious causal relationship, while readily apparent to you and I, is not widely known. It also underscores an even more important reason for unionization. If widespread unionization is not accomplished soon, all life on this planet is doomed.
 
In my view, where unions went astray is when they ceased to serve as the de facto "labor movement" looking out for the interests of all workers. This led to some strategic mistakes whose impact could not be imagined at the time, such as employer sponsored health care. In time, it allowed business interests to "divide and conquer" by pitting union and non-union labor against one another. The result is that there is presently no cohesive movement in the US advocating the interests of wage laborers, whatever those interests might be.

You raise an interesting point and the reality is what you describe has been a big point of contention within the labor movement. The labor movement actually started out as a rather unified movement, particularly with the Knights of Labor, that hoped to enact major, widespread social change. However, when John Lewis became a major labor figure, he pushed an agenda that was more focused on changing workers' immediate situations through collective bargaining. This model, known as business unionism, has been severely criticized throughout the years by the Wobblies, who have always been much more grassroots, militant, and "revolutionary" in their approach.

Many people don't realize this, but the labor movement had a pretty big hand in sowing the seeds for the eventual passage of the Taft-Hartley Act. The AFL became frustrated with what they saw as the NLRB's favoritism towards the nascent CIO. Particularly, Board member Edwin Smith was following what he saw as the primarily policy goal of the Wagner Act to promote collective bargaining. Therefore, he saw the CIO's emphasis on industrial unionism as being more inline with the policy directive than the AFL's craft unionism approach. Industrial unionism would result in much larger bargaining units than craft unionism. The AFL's President hit the roof when the NLRB certified a longshoreman bargaining unit that encompassed about five discreet locations. After that, the AFL conspired with business interests to amend the NLRA and oust the current Board members. Congress yanked the NLRB in front of a committee of anti-labor politicians who turned the whole thing into a witch hunt. World War II hit and labor policy change went on the backburner. However, the findings of that committee investigation eventually found their way into the Taft-Hartley Act.

Also, Truman famously vetoed Taft-Hartley, but it wasn't because he was opposed to the law. He actually thought it was a decent amendment. He vetoed it, knowing his veto would be overridden, but doing so would secure his vote from labor in the following election.
 
You've asked Unrepresented to prove something that is essentially unprovable. Not because the one variable did not cause the other, but because causation simply does not exist. If we could manipulate one variable while leaving all others constant we could ‘prove’ that a rise in one variable seems to occur simultaneously with a reduction in the other variable. That is as close as we can get to establishing causation which, as I say, in an objective sense does not really exist. When a cue ball strikes a numbered ball and the numbered ball starts moving, we think the cue ball caused the motion. But really, all we have is two events that seem to regularly, reliably, occur one after the other. We still have not found causation. What we have found is convention.

In any case, the real wages (adjusted for inflation) of hourly employees have been falling for many decades. No credible economist would suggest otherwise. In that same period, union affiliation has fallen. These variables are, without a doubt, strongly correlated. I would not expect a rise in wages to ‘cause’ a rise in union affiliation. However, a reasonable person might expect a rise in affiliation to be correlated with a rise in wages. That connection is certainly not counter-intuitive.

Given the brute fact that real wages and union affiliation are strongly correlated, I wonder if you can offer a reason we should dismiss the theory that affiliation affects wages. Particularly in light of data which regularly shows that union workers’ wages are almost invariably higher than those of non-union workers who perform the same tasks.

In other words, history is a threat to internal validity (hey, this dovetails nicely with the research discussion in the Flat Earth thread). Unfortunately, completely controlling for history is something that needs to be done via methodology rather than within a regression analysis (unless you can code known spurious variables and then control for them within the model). You could control for time, but that still may not give the whole picture.

It's been a while since I've surveyed that particular literature, but IIRC, there is evidence that unionization in the 1950s, when it was highest in the private sector, did contribute to increases in real wages and living conditions. As OF pointed out, it stands to reason that a decrease in unionization has a causal influence in the decrease in real wages, but of course, there are other independent variables at play here, most obviously, globalization, offshoring, technological change rendering jobs obsolete, and other policies (e.g., NAFTA). You probably could build a theory to describe unionization's decline and its exact influence on household economic conditions, but it would require a deep understanding of the literature and a very good statistical model. The Panel Study of Income Dynamics may be a good dataset to start with.

It's also worth noting that while unionization in the private sector has gone down over the years, unionization in the public sector has greatly increased.

Speaking purely anecdotally here (although this in itself would make for an interesting study), IME, most attempts of organizing come down to working conditions more than attempting to increase wages.
 
Yes, when wages are below subsistence-level, they (wages) are at the top of workers' priority list. When wages are above subsistence, other issues (working conditions) become more important than wages in workers' minds. It would be good if more employers understood this. Worker satisfaction does not have to be expensive.

(I sent you a PM)
 
OK, so the folks who are raising crap about wages at CG and Wal-Mart 1. do NOT want a ONE DOLLAR PER HOUR RAISE. They want SEVERAL dollars per hour more AND much batter benefits. So, for all of you claiming that it would be nothing for the company to give everyone a dollar an hour if the executives took a pay cut, you are ridiculous.

However, I would argue that fancier grocery stores and/or depaetment stores don't offer any better customer service than Wal-Mart. Again, it is NOT the JOB of huge department store chains (or MUSIC store chains) to offer great customer service. It is also NOT the job of those places to offer great CAREERS for UNSKILLED WORKERS. 2. These are the kinds of places that unskilled workers BEGIN their careers at until they figure out what they want to do when they GROW UP. If they NEVER grow up, that isn't Wal-Mart or GC's fault. I'm not going to pay an unskilled worker a great deal more money just because he stuck around and unloaded pallets for three years. He is still an unskilled worker who unloads pallets. And unloading pallets will NEVER be worth $25 an hour. NEVER. 3. If he wants more money, he should sign up for financial aid and go to school. (I am back in school at age 42 and I am SURROUNDED by an over SEVENTY PERCENT population of students on financial aid.) Wal-Mart and GC employees wanting better wages are people who 4. COULD do better but CHOOSE not to. I don't feel a thing for them. There are more federal programs in place to handle child care, housing, food and education than you can swing a stick at. Go get an education and a better job. (And please don;t tell me it can't be done. That's BS. With two small children at age 42 I am living proof that it CAN be done. My classes start back Thursday.)

I put numbers next to the highlighted parts to better address your post.

1. Well duh. It's been argued for awhile now that the minimum wage hasn't been raised in a way to match inflation of our dollar. In other words, the minimum wage goes less far now than it did in the 60's (as much as 30% less far!). People want a minimum wage that has the same value as it once did. That's not a bad thing.

2. You apparently didn't watch this video so I'll post it again. WATCH IT:


The people working these jobs aren't high school or college aged kids. Those days have passed. These people were in the career stages of their lives but have been fired due to cut backs. They need a job that will allow them to survive, and when you're only able to make $1,500 a month from these jobs, when the national average for rent a month is $1,000, it becomes VERY hard to do so. At the same time, the executives of these companies have been receiving multimillion dollar pay raises, multimillion dollar stock options, etc... It's time these companies give back to their workers and shared in the struggle. If they don't help pay for it then the average, middle class American will through taxes that go towards welfare that these same workers NEED to apply for to live on such wages. Make no mistake, it's either us or them.

The US has changed. We need to stop coddling corporations who are seeing record profits by acting like we aren't more deserving of a better cut of the pie that we've helped produce.

3. Don't you see anything wrong with that? Why are people having to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt to go to school? When you were at a more proper age to go to college a year's worth of education would cost no more than what a person could make a summer working at McDonald's. Try doing that today. Furthermore, have you not heard that Congress allowed college loan interest rates to go up (I believe it was) double of what they previously were? Corporations get better rates than what we do on investing in the education of our future workforce.

4. Again, see prong #2. You couldn't be more wrong.
 
I think the rise in earth temps correlate pretty well with the decline in union affiliation, don't they?

Yes. As do the rises in crime, traffic deaths, and the price of bread. All have gone up while union membership has declined. So, obviously the solution is to get EVERYONE into a union. We could even have Welfare unions. That would fix everything. :rolleyes:
 
I'm highly impressed by the large brains contributing to this discussion. On both sides.

It confirms the point I attempted to make earlier; not everybody has the set of tools needed to do as well as the next guy. But that doesn't mean that the guy with fewer tools shouldn't have the opportunity to do well.

I find it unnerving though that somewhere in this thread I read that some people believe that the economic problems in the US began just over five years ago. That's just silly.
 
Yes. As do the rises in crime, traffic deaths, and the price of bread. All have gone up while union membership has declined. So, obviously the solution is to get EVERYONE into a union. We could even have Welfare unions. That would fix everything. :rolleyes:

I am a fan of ensuring that hard working Americans get the pay, job security, and safe work environments they deserve. Unions work to provide those.
 
These are the kinds of places that unskilled workers BEGIN their careers at until they figure out what they want to do when they GROW UP.

I am a state wage-and-hour regulator. People who believe the typical minimum wage earner is a high school kid earning gas money, and people who imagine that everyone can go to college and become an engineer, I think (and should suggest, but I don't) that somebody should do their homework before they engage in these discussions. The typical minimum wage earner is an adult and nearly half are heads of households. Federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. The average month has 173.3 working hours. That comes out to $12.56 per month. A little over $15K per year. This is below the poverty level for a 2-person household.

We, the taxpayer, basically subsidize the living costs of all minimum wage workers. We pay for their health care. We subsidize their transportation. We give them food stamps. Some people wonder why we don't simply make the employers pay these costs, and let us pay a more "market" rate for our hamburgers instead of subsidising the costs of those hamburgers with our tax dollars.

And we pay in other ways. Minimum wage earners with families must work multiple jobs. Their kids rarely spend time with them. Television probably raises as many kids as parents do.

It's really good that you are going to college. Not everybody will. Not everybody can. If everyone did, then we'd have engineers flipping hamburgers and vacuuming offices at night. Bring more than ideology to these discussions. Bring accurate information, and bring solution suggestions.
 
Unions are a direct answer to the erosion of good American jobs.

Remember employer provided health insurance? Pensions? Jobs that paid above minimum wage? Those are items we've given up as we've allowed unions to be beaten back.

There it is, again.

I have all of those things. I don't belong to a union. Wanna know why pensions are becoming extinct? Because they don't work financially for companies.
 

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