Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 Appreciation Thread

[KJung]

My secondary gain (volume) is all the way up. Bringing the gain up to about 2:00 is getting me there with Master @ about noon. I am running a passive Fullerton AVRI Jazz, which is very low output. All in all, fooling with it the last hour or so, I'm getting closer. I would not have thought the gain structure of the 9.0 would be different than the Tube channel of the 750! Interesting.

Cool! You should be fine, and it should crank for you nicely. My TecAmp Puma is the same way. With my Alleva-Coppolo in passive mode, I need to run the input gain at past 3 o'clock, and the master past 1 o'clock before anything really starts to happen. It is just a design desicion by the design team versus an absolute positive or negative. However, if you are old enough to have dealt with those old Eden and GK amps that reached full volume and output with the knobs barely on, it is quite a shock!

 

[hasbeen]

Lightweight has nothing to do with it. You can't assume the gain structure is the same on the 900 as the 750. The gain on the 900 is set VERY low versus many other amps (i.e., you really have to crank the pre gain AND secondary gain to get a strong signal going into the power amp.

So, first thing is turn the secondary gain all the way up. That's the way IMO the vast majority of 9 users should start out (assuming they want a relatively clean tone). Now, set the primary gain control (with the master relatively low so you don't blow up your ears) as high as you can get it while getting a tone that you like (the tube will grind a bit when pushed). This could easily be at 3 o'clock with a light touch or a low output instrument (and, totally ignore the input clip light.. an input clip light on a tube pre is like 'boobies on a bull'). Only then should you use the master to set the overall volume.

Doing this should give you similar volume to the 750 in both 4 and 8 ohms IMO and IME.

Genz does rate their power using a different method than most companies, but the 9 still cranks IME, if not like a 900 watt lead sled, then at least like a good 600 watt amp, which is plenty for virtually any situation.

Thanks for the assist KJ....you are absolutely correct. The gain structer is way different between the GBE series and the Shuttles. One big difference is with the front end. We don't have an active/passive switch for the 9.0/6.0/3.0.....so, we had to pad the input differently.

 

[hasbeen]

I missed you guys too. As of last month, a VERY good friend of mine is now VP of Marketing for Aguilar. It would have been good to hang with him too.

It's always fun when two competitors who are friends can hang. Makes for good conversation. [/QUOT}

Will there be new goodies at the next NAMM?

Yes.

 

[OhulahanBass]

Ok, I want to be very upfront about my 1st impressions with the Shuttle 9.0. I have just traded a GBE 750 for the 9.0 and only have spent about 2 hours trying it out. My impression, so far, is the power rating into an 8ohm cab (9.0=500watts vs. 750=400watts) to MY ears is backwards, at best! I could never move the master past 12 o'clock with the 750. I can dime the master on the 9.0 to get even close. This is using the same bass & cab as I used with the 750. I can't compare, of course, because the 750 is no longer here, but was just a few days ago! I have lost about 29 lbs. in the deal which was my intention but I didn't think I'd lose power. Anybody have any thoughts about this? Andy? I'm just wondering if there is a major trade-off in going to lightweight designs from traditional power supplies.

This has got to be a gain stage problem, have fun with some higher settings. On my active bass I have both volume and gain around 2:00. Ignore clip light, tube sim limit light and use your ears.

I think I had the same problem with my 6.0 years ago. This 9.0 beast pushes noticeably harder than 300W Eden tube, 1000W SVT-7, Markbass F1, TC RH450, Eden 550W and sounds more like me than all, (though the 300W tube did the tube sound better...go figure)

The only heads I've haven't been able to max out yet do to my drummer covering his ears and pleading to turn it down (small space) were the SVT-7 and the 9.0, but I can get SVT volume from 210 &112 compare to 410 & 112. After understanding the gain stage limit circuit I will never again question GB watt ratings, this thing is a beast,..keep tweaking.

 

[KJung]

Thanks for the assist KJ....you are absolutely correct. The gain structer is way different between the GBE series and the Shuttles. One big difference is with the front end. We don't have an active/passive switch for the 9.0/6.0/3.0.....so, we had to pad the input differently.

That, IMO, is actually a very good thing. My TecAmp is the same kind of thing. My Markbass heads work fine for me since I have moderate touch and 'normal output basses', but with a relatively hot input and no pad control, there are players that literally overload the input (rare, but it happens).

It just takes an adjustment in mindset to crank those knobs up so much. Glockenklang is a similar thing... you set the input gain to the appropriate level, crank the master to noon, and that 750 watt HeartRock sounds like a practice amp. By 3 o'clock on the master, there you go.

Just feels strange for some of the old timers (that's me too) used to reaching virtually full power back in the early days with those GK's and Edens set at 10 o'clock on the pre gain and 10 o'clock on the master

 

[svtb15]

Yes I met your bud.... Very nice guy.. We talk about you.. All good!
He was on his MAC alot.. but real cool guy.. Jimmy from Alleva Coppolo was sharing a studio room with the aggy guys, modulus, dunlop and spector.

I missed you guys too. As of last month, a VERY good friend of mine is now VP of Marketing for Aguilar. It would have been good to hang with him too.

It's always fun when two competitors who are friends can hang. Makes for good conversation.

 

[Oldtimer]

Thanks for the assist KJ....you are absolutely correct. The gain structer is way different between the GBE series and the Shuttles. One big difference is with the front end. We don't have an active/passive switch for the 9.0/6.0/3.0.....so, we had to pad the input differently.

Roger and Ken, Thanks! I forgot about the gain pad (switch) on the 750! Slowly changing old guy mindset. Ken I pm'd you a couple of days ago. Did you get it?

 

[OhulahanBass]

I think Genz ought to make an envelope filter pedal

Not that we need another filter pedal, but hey..I can dream.

I've been through allot and there are many more to try on the market, it's gotten to the point your envelope filter needs to offer something special to compete now that there are soooooo many trusted names produce great ones. I usually try envelopes priced around $200-400. However, I think Source Audio DESTROYS all others as far as versatility, quality of tone, Funkiness, and price $120. Don't see another pedal beating it until SA comes out with one with presets. Now that I have the SA Bass Envelope filter the only envelope follower left on my board is the Mutron. (By the way, the shuttle makes these puppies sing in away my second favorite amp, the RH450, never could. It's not even close).

Tube effects or compression on the other hand may be a good direction to start in. Like a Markbass Compressore with a Genz Benz flavor....ummmmm!

 

[agedhorse]

Do the "power conditioners" actually work for something like this??

No, a "power conditioner" is generally a marketing term more than a performance term and while they generally include some form of voltage spike limiter (various forms) mostly they are a handy way of adding a nice looking power strip to your rack.

What you need is a true voltage regulator... BUT... with this comes the danger of regulator oscillation and hunting (Jerrold Tiers and I discussed this a while back with the same conclusion) along with the possible damage from an under/overvoltage overshoot. This is because as the regulator steps the voltage up the current pon the primary (input) must increase as well which increases the voltage drop which causes the regulator to increase the sep up and on and on. A high source impedance (poor power source wiring) along with dynamic loads are the worst possible condition and this is why many power amp manufacturers recommend against such devices.

 

[rdmjazz]

No, a "power conditioner" is generally a marketing term more than a performance term and while they generally include some form of voltage spike limiter (various forms) mostly they are a handy way of adding a nice looking power strip to your rack.

What you need is a true voltage regulator... BUT... with this comes the danger of regulator oscillation and hunting (Jerrold Tiers and I discussed this a while back with the same conclusion) along with the possible damage from an under/overvoltage overshoot. This is because as the regulator steps the voltage up the current pon the primary (input) must increase as well which increases the voltage drop which causes the regulator to increase the sep up and on and on. A high source impedance (poor power source wiring) along with dynamic loads are the worst possible condition and this is why many power amp manufacturers recommend against such devices.

Thanks for the info...

 

[agedhorse]

Well I bet more of your customers are probably playing"backwoods clubs" than out touring...I don't think they want to have an amp failure due to power anymore than someone on the road..... not a very fair statement there...

You are reading things into this that I did not intend or intentionally imply.

With a touring client, a failure on the road inconveniences everybody on the tour... somebody(s) have to rectify this in an area unfamiliar to them, they can't leave it at a repair shop if they are only in town for 24 hours, arrangements must be made right there and then which involve the tour manager, a runner, the artist himself, etc. I know that when I am involved as a production manager or TD on touring shows that travel through our area I have helped several artists out who had serious equipment problems (even though not our stuff) because it's part of touring courtesy and understanding the difficulty of being out on the road.

Smaller, local "backwoods" type clubs are not typically touring venues, the bands that play are more local to the area, could borrrow an amp from a buddy or after the gig have time to correct the problem as they are unlikely to be hundreds or thousands of miles from home. Kind of a different situation in that in these cases a (real hardware) failure is not so disruptive other than at the gig itself. Still, I would prefer an amp to protect itself from such faults than fail outright.

 

[agedhorse]

Saying to an owner/manager, "Your power is bad, we're not going to play." isn't really a viable option in this biz, so I carry the backup head and a backup DI if that head fails. However, having the bass cut out in the middle of a song as an indicator of an AC power fluctuation problem kinda sux.

This is certainly a viable option and it's part of many tech riders. It's almost defacto standard in the PA side of the industry as having the PA shut down is just as problematic... maybe even moreso.

No PA company is going to plug their gear into defective power either, many of the new power amps have low voltage (and high voltage) shutdown as well and it's set just about the same (or even higher) as we use. Digital consoles are way more picky about power but even larger format analog consoles and outboard gear can be pretty voltage sensitive.

Think about it this way, you are in a foreign third world (to you) country and you have a choice of drinking poor quality water or just moving on? It's the same sort of risk, you may be ok but you may also suffer catastrophic gastric failure really messing things up for everybody else too... which do you choose?

 

[chicago_mike]

I had a cab blow out on me on the road and had replacement speakers sent to the next venue. Stuff like this is day to day for touring bands.

Going back to the Shuttle input gain, My main bass is a lakland wich has an internal trimpot. I have this set higher as the input on the shuttle can handle it.

 

[Oldtimer]

I had a cab blow out on me on the road and had replacement speakers sent to the next venue. Stuff like this is day to day for touring bands.

Going back to the Shuttle input gain, My main bass is a lakland wich has an internal trimpot. I have this set higher as the input on the shuttle can handle it.

Interesting! I have both a Lakland fretted and Fretless 4-94 and havn't tried either of these yet. My guess is the gains will be coming down, possibly considerably, with these two verses a passive Fender Jazz.

 

[rdmjazz]

You are reading things into this that I did not intend or intentionally imply.

With a touring client, a failure on the road inconveniences everybody on the tour... somebody(s) have to rectify this in an area unfamiliar to them, they can't leave it at a repair shop if they are only in town for 24 hours, arrangements must be made right there and then which involve the tour manager, a runner, the artist himself, etc. I know that when I am involved as a production manager or TD on touring shows that travel through our area I have helped several artists out who had serious equipment problems (even though not our stuff) because it's part of touring courtesy and understanding the difficulty of being out on the road.

Smaller, local "backwoods" type clubs are not typically touring venues, the bands that play are more local to the area, could borrrow an amp from a buddy or after the gig have time to correct the problem as they are unlikely to be hundreds or thousands of miles from home. Kind of a different situation in that in these cases a (real hardware) failure is not so disruptive other than at the gig itself. Still, I would prefer an amp to protect itself from such faults than fail outright.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that's just the way it read to me..

I understand where you are coming from. Any equipment failure is a no win situation. I've dealt with it on the road as a player and TM. I've also dealt with it on the local scene. Obviously the stakes are higher for big shows, but it sucks just as a bad in the club trenches, especially as a freelancer. Its hard to get called back if you show up with equipment problems (even though there is no controlling a venues power problems) and disrupt somebody's show, no matter what level.

Anyway enough of this negative problem junk..Let's get back on track for the appreciation of the Shuttle 9.0

 

[chicago_mike]

Cool! You should be fine, and it should crank for you nicely. My TecAmp Puma is the same way. With my Alleva-Coppolo in passive mode, I need to run the input gain at past 3 o'clock, and the master past 1 o'clock before anything really starts to happen. It is just a design desicion by the design team versus an absolute positive or negative. However, if you are old enough to have dealt with those old Eden and GK amps that reached full volume and output with the knobs barely on, it is quite a shock!

Linear taper vs. Audio taper volume controls.

 

[funkythumb]

Just ordered a 9.0 from Indoor Storm for $659. No tax, no shipping! Not bad at all.
Can't wait to hear it with my AE410.
Thanks to all who helped with the amp advice.

 

[OhulahanBass]

Just ordered a 9.0 from Indoor Storm for $659. No tax, no shipping! Not bad at all.
Can't wait to hear it with my AE410.
Thanks to all who helped with the amp advice.

Please tell us how it sounds with the Berg. I'm curious in Berg vs. GB cabs.

 

[hasbeen]

Yes I met your bud.... Very nice guy.. We talk about you.. All good!
He was on his MAC alot.. but real cool guy.. Jimmy from Alleva Coppolo was sharing a studio room with the aggy guys, modulus, dunlop and spector.

Ah...cool, I'm glad you got to meet Mark. Nice guy working for a great company. I'm happy for him and for Dave B.

 

[mongo2]

This is certainly a viable option and it's part of many tech riders. It's almost defacto standard in the PA side of the industry as having the PA shut down is just as problematic... maybe even moreso.

We don't have the luxury of contracts much less with riders. If we pulled a stunt like that we'd be ditched permanently. This ain't the big time. It sounds like you think all your customers are major acts.

After my Shuttle shut down in protect mode twice I started metering the AC prior to plugging in and the last two times the Shuttle shut down the AC had metered fine. There doesn't seem to be a way to predict if the AC will fluctuate out of the amp's tolerance.

Just curious, did you ever serve time playing bass in "bar" bands?