Genz Benz testing issues and general rig advise needed

[chunger]

Hello,

I've been looking for a micro-ish rigs lately and am wrestling with a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 12T combo that I've been testing for my "basses for newbies" project detailed here:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=627147

The criteria I'm hoping fulfill are:

compact (1 trip)
expandable (can use extension cab for bigger gigs)
full and loud enough for general, reasonable volume gigging
clean enough for use in studio
generally fun and inspiring
not over-the-top price-wise

The form factor of the GB units were favorable. I have in hand a Shuttle 6.0 12T combo and have a Shuttle 9.0 head incoming for testing.

I'm having a few issues with the Shuttle 6.0 head as well as the 12T cabinet and was hoping some more knowledgeable folks here on forum could chime in.

First off. . . lack of low-end extension on the 12T cab. To my ear, the cab is dying off on the fundamentals in lower notes, and I start to hear just overtones. This becomes particularly appearant when using a 6 string bass. Is the NeoX 12T a lot better in this regard? Same drivers. Looking at the specs provided regarding frequency response, there is no difference. The cab is breaking in, so I've been going real easy on it volume wise and not slapping on it yet, and it does seem to be opening up a bit with each session.

Another issue I'm hearing is what seems to me to be a harshness and frequency spike in the upper midrange.

And, another strong concern of mine is a lack of transparency or 3 dimensionality in the tone. I feel like the sound is "flattened" or veiled. It is certainly loud enough and in broad strokes, the general vibe is present, but I can't get in there and hear a lot of the analytical nuance and depth I'm needing to hear.

For general information, the rigs I am somewhat familiar playing/hearing are Thunderfunk 550B--> Acme B2. . . (my rig) and my other bass tester's main rig Walter Woods --> Accugroove Tri 112.

After identifying what I felt were the problems (listed above), I tried to isolate the sources. The main components in my mind are preamp section, power amp section, and speaker.

Taking the 12T cab out of the loop and plugging the Shuttle 6.0 head into the 4 ohm Acme B2, I found my bass extension again. The shuttle also seems quite capable of driving the B2 to max volume without huffing and puffing too much. Still it feels a bit rolled off in the bass and the upper midrange spike though reduced is still present. I figured the 12 inch speaker that I'm not intimately familiar with has a spike there as well as the amp. Still, the sound was a bit veiled through the ACME cab and I was not able to get the detail and 3 dimensionality I get with WW or Thunderfunk driving this cab. I'm not sure the 12T has enough punch for what I subjectively consider adequate for general gigging on its own.

In an attempt to isolate the preamp, I unplugged the speakers from the head and set the XLR output to post. . . and then connected it to a Yorkville A4.4 power amp driving first the 12T cab and then the ACME B2 cab. With 1200 watts per side of clean power, I figured I could take a listen to what the preamp was doing with the shuttle's power section out of the loop. In this configuration, I was able to regain a lot of transparency and depth. Switching back and forth between the external power amp and the Shuttle power section, I found that at least a significant part of the "flatness" is coming from the power amp section of the head. The shuttle is plenty loud. . . just not as transparent and 3 dimensional.

The preamp still retained what I felt is rolled off bass and upper midrange spike although everything was a bit sweeter running through the power amp. I suspect a compounded mid spike in the 12" driver with the power section's characteristics made the 12T combo sound a little hashy in the midrange to my ear.

In reading posts on forum, I've ordered a JJ ECC83 tube as a handful of people indicate that this flattens out the tone curve a bit (smoother mids and more bass extension), and it a reasonably priced piece. I also read that significant changes were made to the power section of the Shuttle 9.0, so I'm eager to hear that unit when it comes in to see if power section issues that I'm hearing on the 6.0 are largely improved.

I'd love to know if there is something I'm doing wrong or if my expectations from the 12T combo are just not reasonable. Also, is there another setup within the Genz Benz line that would work a lot better? Or am I hearing the general vibe and voicing of the GB line of compact cabs with this 12T?

I'm also interested in going back to the drawing board and searching for other combinations that have worked well for people here given the criteria I mentioned at the beginning of the post.

 

[KJung]

If you are comparing a small, midrange voiced, lightweight box to the Acme, yes, you will hear compression of the lowest notes. The Acme is a unique box in that it is tuned WAY down low. This can be a good or bad thing in a mix, and as a former Acme user, I found myself always struggling with flub and bloom below 40hz. Many who use these cabs use a variable hi pass filter to reduce this deep low end.

So, be careful comparing at home in a solo setting. A deeper voiced cab will always sound better in that situation. In an actual performance situation, often times your preference will flip.

That being said, the Shuttle 6/112T is VERY rolled off in the low end, even compared to other amps and 112 cabs. The Shuttle 9 has a high pass filter set lower, and has a more natural, open low end. That head should sound quite good with your Acme. Engaging the 'bass boost' on the 6 will help, but that will quickly overwhelm that little 112 box in the low end at anything more than the lowest volume playing IMO and IME.

There are many, many micro heads and small 112's that will have MUCH more low end than the Shuttle 6/12t combo (which sounds nice in its own way).

If you aren't that weight sensitive, want a lot of low end without the flub of the Acme (IMO), try that Shuttle 9 with a Bergantino HT112ER and be amazed... deep but not floppy, smooth mids (the 'transparent three dimension' thing you mention), and a much clearer, crisper top end than the Acme.

I have a clip of the HT112ER with a variety of micro heads up on my Youtube channel if you are interested in hearing it.... link is in my sig.

IMO!

Edit: To be clear, if you really dig the Acme, you won't really find a smaller lightweight alternative IMO... unique cab. You might consider an Acme B110 for your smaller gig needs if that is the tone you dig.

 

[KJung]

Ps If you decide to listen to the HT112ER clip on my Youtube channel, and have a decent playback system, particularly check out the TecAmp Puma500 part of the clip at around 1 minute. The Puma has a very wide, pure, deep voice, and that hi pass filter is set very low (i.e., lots of deep bass coming out of that amp). That amp is very good for testing the low end response capability of cabinets. I hear absolutely zero compression from the E to open B of my bass with that cab. Quite amazing, and again, much more punchy than the Acme to my ears... best of both worlds if you are looking for that more 'studio pure' type tone.

 

[JxBass]

I predict you'll really like the Shuttle 9.0. I was underwhelmed when I briefly owned a Shuttle 6.0 but I love the Shuttle 9.0!

 

[philtoler]

have just acquired an Orange SP210 and it's awesome for the size and weight and 600W power handling. Using it with my Orange Bass Terror I can drive it up to the amp's full 500W with the impedance switch set to 8ohms. I see from other posts that the SP212 is also amazing for it's size but obviously weighs significantly more than the 210.

 

[wagdog]

Perhaps if you're looking for clarity with a good amount of depth you should try a Phil Jones combo. A Super Flightcase is an amazing little rig similar in size to the Shuttle combo. Similarly priced too, if I remember correctly.

 

[dlargent]

Hey - I have a Genz Benz Neox 212T. I know that this is completely different amp than you are testing, but my general impressions are similar.

Once I had a 2-bass jam with drums and guitar. I was playing the GB212, and the other bass player had Bergantino with 3 tens. The first song, I started out by myself and the band started great. Then the other bass player came in and the Bergie cabinet had so much low end, that it made my bass sound like it had no bass at all.

However, my personal opinion is that 'low end' is over-rated. I'm a big fan of fitting the bass guitar into the midrange, sort of like vintage Fender Bassman 212 or to some extent the SVT. When I hear a bass with a huge low end, to me it sounds annoying and kind of stomps all over the mix.

I guess my point is the Genz Benz rig you are testing might be better for a reasonable, mature-sounding, well-mixed live band. As Kjung mentioned, too much low end can sometimes be a problem.IMO

 

[agedhorse]

Are you using the Shuttle with the low frequency extend switch engaged?

The LF extend function shifts the high pass filter down, good when playing the 112 at lower to medium volumes and for larger cabinets at higher volumes.

For a 5 or 6 string bass especially, you would probably be happier for the kind of testing I suspect you are doing, with a larger cabinet such as something in the Uber or NeoX lines. The Shuttle cabinet, as with other manufacturer's sub-compact cabinets, just don't have the low frequency extension of their larger brethren. It's one of the tradeoffs that are made when downsizing cabinets to such an extent.

Also, our products do not exaggerate the low end response. This may make them sound less "impressive" initially and upon comparison, but in the end it's a voicing that seems to work well for a pretty wide crossection of the bass playing community as a whole.

 

[abarson]

I applaude the well-written analysis and explanation of what you're trying to sort out.
What I'm having a problem with is owning a Thunderfunk and an Acme B2 and wanting something else!

 

[mccartneyman]

Our sound man askedme to start using a 410 subwoofer cab in addition to the NEOX 112T and SLT 112T I normally use, and quite frankly I don't like the way it sounds. It giove me way too much bottom onstage for my tastes. I actually like the two 112 sound better. I was never a fan of massive bottom end at the expense of clarity, and I think Genz-Benz offers just the right blend.

 

[mccartneyman]

Hello,

I've been looking for a micro-ish rigs lately and am wrestling with a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 12T combo that I've been testing for my "basses for newbies" project detailed here:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=627147

The criteria I'm hoping fulfill are:

compact (1 trip)
expandable (can use extension cab for bigger gigs)
full and loud enough for general, reasonable volume gigging
clean enough for use in studio
generally fun and inspiring
not over-the-top price-wise

The form factor of the GB units were favorable. I have in hand a Shuttle 6.0 12T combo and have a Shuttle 9.0 head incoming for testing.

I'm having a few issues with the Shuttle 6.0 head as well as the 12T cabinet and was hoping some more knowledgeable folks here on forum could chime in.

First off. . . lack of low-end extension on the 12T cab. To my ear, the cab is dying off on the fundamentals in lower notes, and I start to hear just overtones. This becomes particularly appearant when using a 6 string bass. Is the NeoX 12T a lot better in this regard? .

I added the NEOX 112T to my Shuttle 6.0 112T setup aat the recommendation of Jeff Genzler and it made all the difference in the world. A much fuller sound with plenty of bottom for most applications, especially with PA support. As Jeff told me, go with the SHiuttlecabs only if sapce is your primary consideration. Two NEOX 112Ts would be the perfect expandable setup, IMHO.

 

[chunger]

I applaude the well-written analysis and explanation of what you're trying to sort out.
What I'm having a problem with is owning a Thunderfunk and an Acme B2 and wanting something else!

This is not for me. . . this is "for the children" I've been building bass guitars targeted at serious bass students and many times sold through bass teachers. This is to address the common problem of students coming in with unserviceable instruments. I'm looking to put together an "end to end" solution so a student can come in with nothing and leave with the tools needed to get them a long way into their bass playing career and avoid a lot of mis-starts and frustration. Once I pushed through my professional bass playing friends clamoring over the basses like vultures and snatching them up, I was eventually able to start getting some to actual students and school music programs

So far, I've got the basses to a point where they are dialed in as far as playability (PLEK), tone (custom Nordy pups, shielding, electronics). I'm looking for an amp setup that I can feel comfortable handing to a serious student (or working professional as it turns out) knowing it will carry them for nearly all foreseeable "bassing" needs whether gigging, recording, practicing, or rehearsing. . . plus, be modular enough to expand as needed. I'm looking for an amp system with the same abilities.

Genz Benz was the first company that came on the radar because through affiliation with other parts manufacturers that I use, I needed to open an account with KMC which happens to also distributes Genz Benz in the states. I was able to obtain test samples to test in the field with aims of possibly becoming a dealer if the samples worked out and the powers that be were sympathetic to my mission. Highly favorable reviews all around and reports of outstanding customer support suggested I should give the line a serious thought, and I am.

I probably simply chose the wrong product in the Genz Benz line for the job at hand, but you can't blame a guy for looking at that form factor/weight and giving it a whirl. In the back of my mind, doubt lingered concerning the small combo size which is why I suspected the Shuttle 9.0 might be the one that hits closer to the mark. It's just slightly back-ordered right now and the 6.0 arrived first. KJung's youtube clip of the Bergantino HT112ER was extremely interesting to me. I don't necessarily need all the low-end extension of the ACME to be happy. . . a little efficiency would be welcome. Maybe a happy medium.

Since inside Genz Benz reps are responding to thread, I guess I should ask. Given my preferences indicated above, do you think anything in the NeoX line will fit the bill well? The amps still have my complete attention and I feel need more testing in the field, but the current cab that i have is probably not a viable option for my application.

I did utilize the bass boost button, and it did fill out the low end significantly. In general, I've been able to EQ into the vibe I'm after. It's just a bit more comforting when an amp lands close when set flat. As far as amps having pre-set shape or "coloration" I've been testing the basses in studio going direct with no EQ, and have been happy with the tones dead flat. . . so I figure a flat amp would be a great starting point. I do prefer tones to be a little "in your face" which is how the basses are voiced and probably whey they cut just fine on my floofy ACME rig. No complaints about intelligibility at low volumes in band situations.

Bass #9 w/ latest pickup prototype direct sound below:

 

[agedhorse]

The low end on the NeoX speakers is significantly more extended and a little rounder. The cabinets are a little larger and heavier as well. Still compact but fall outside of the sub-compact catagory IMO.

 

[LeonD]

For me, one of the beauties of the Shuttle line is the versatility. I don't always need the large or multiple cab set ups.

For practices or drummerless gigs, it's the Shuttle all the way. On the big stage, I pop the the head out and put it on a 4x10.

 

[wengr]

Do the shuttle 9.0 have a different type power output module? Or is it the same and just bigger? Does the power module have anything to do with the 3.0 and 6.0 being voiced for shuttle cabs? And also is the power module(s) in the max exactly the same as in the 6.0? thanks in advance

 

[agedhorse]

The Shuttle and ShuttleMax 6.0 use the same power amp module.

The 9.0 module is based on the same technology and share much of the same design but is considerably beefed up in several areas leading to the added perceived girth.

 

[wengr]

The Shuttle and ShuttleMax 6.0 use the same power amp module.

The 9.0 module is based on the same technology and share much of the same design but is considerably beefed up in several areas leading to the added perceived girth.

I was afraid you would say that. Seems I have to choose between the tone of the 9.0, or the features of the 12.0.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I've never tried a Shuttle so I can't comment on them however I really don't think it fair to compare an Acme cab to any other make on both sides. I agree with Ken that the Acme range are unique. I find that running an amplifier flat into a B2 gives me everything I've ever wanted in my sound. Sticking a second on top of the first, skinny stack, is my ideal gig rig.

Paul

 

[agedhorse]

I was afraid you would say that. Seems I have to choose between the tone of the 9.0, or the features of the 12.0.

The difference is really pretty small unless you need the extra power. You should try them both and choose what YOU like.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Are you using the Shuttle with the low frequency extend switch engaged?

The LF extend function shifts the high pass filter down, good when playing the 112 at lower to medium volumes and for larger cabinets at higher volumes.

For a 5 or 6 string bass especially, you would probably be happier for the kind of testing I suspect you are doing, with a larger cabinet such as something in the Uber or NeoX lines. The Shuttle cabinet, as with other manufacturer's sub-compact cabinets, just don't have the low frequency extension of their larger brethren. It's one of the tradeoffs that are made when downsizing cabinets to such an extent.

Also, our products do not exaggerate the low end response. This may make them sound less "impressive" initially and upon comparison, but in the end it's a voicing that seems to work well for a pretty wide crossection of the bass playing community as a whole.

And here I thought this was an L.F. BOOST switch (because it's labelled as such on the Shuttle 6.0's front panel). If it were labelled 'L.F. EXTEND' then perhaps more players would understand it's function better.

Does the Shuttle 6.0's L.F. BOOST switch on = the Shuttle 9.0's L.F. BOOST switch off?