Genz Benz testing issues and general rig advise needed

[agedhorse]

And here I thought this was an L.F. BOOST switch (because it's labelled as such on the Shuttle 6.0's front panel). If it were labelled 'L.F. EXTEND' then perhaps more players would understand it's function better.

Does the Shuttle 6.0's L.F. BOOST switch on = the Shuttle 9.0's L.F. BOOST switch off?

Please, I should really clarify this.

The "LF Boost" circuit comes from the original tone shaping filters on the GBE-750 and 1200. On these products they are called "LF Extend" That seemed to cause some confusion so when we introduced the Shuttles it was suggested by some players that it would be simpler to understand if it was just called a "LF Boost" circuit instead. Since I designed it as part of the GBE's, Scott and I still refer to it as the LF Extend circuit. Sorry for the confusion.

With the switch out, the high pass filter is set slightly higher, which really helps when driving anybody's (not just ours) sub-compact speaker cabinets hard. It tightens things up and helps prevent damaging overexcursion as the LF driver unloads at low frequencies. If you have a larger cabinet that maintains LF driver loading at lower frequencies, pushing the switch in slides the high pass (low cut) filter down. This is the more flat response position. There is a little more going on behind the scenes, but this is the important stuff.

This might also be part of the reason why a few folks feel that the Shuttles are not as deep on the low end... the LF Boost (Extend) switch must be engaged to get the full low frequency response of the amp.

Hope this helps.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Please, I should really clarify this.

The "LF Boost" circuit comes from the original tone shaping filters on the GBE-750 and 1200. On these products they are called "LF Extend" That seemed to cause some confusion so when we introduced the Shuttles it was suggested by some players that it would be simpler to understand if it was just called a "LF Boost" circuit instead. Since I designed it as part of the GBE's, Scott and I still refer to it as the LF Extend circuit. Sorry for the confusion.

With the switch out, the high pass filter is set slightly higher, which really helps when driving anybody's (not just ours) sub-compact speaker cabinets hard. It tightens things up and helps prevent damaging overexcursion as the LF driver unloads at low frequencies. If you have a larger cabinet that maintains LF driver loading at lower frequencies, pushing the switch in slides the high pass (low cut) filter down. This is the more flat response position. There is a little more going on behind the scenes, but this is the important stuff.

This might also be part of the reason why a few folks feel that the Shuttles are not as deep on the low end... the LF Boost (Extend) switch must be engaged to get the full low frequency response of the amp.

Hope this helps.

Yes it does help--a lot!

I'd expect that many players have an aversion to 'boost' switches in general since their use typically results in a hyped EQ response.

It's illuminating to learn that the Shuttle 6's "L.F. BOOST" switch is actually a practical design feature.

The next time I see yet another the-Shuttle-6-sounds-too-thin assessment I'll refer the author to your post.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[chunger]

I went back and read the owner's manual. . . go figure. There's a lot of great info there. What nags at me is what I perceive as a loss of depth and clarity in the power amp section, and the cursory description of a class D amplifier said that it is pretty much a power digital to analog converter. So, essentially, my analog signal is converted to a digital PWM digital signal and then it's shifted up to higher voltage and re-constructed. . . and somewhere in there "processing techniques" are applied to the signal.

I guess I could be sensitive to any number of things that occur in this process that to my ear "flattens" the sound. . . it's interesting that the first thought that came to my mind when switching back and forth between an external power amplifier and the Shuttle's power section was, "It sounds like someone put my bass through pro-tools".. . but then, I dismissed the thought because I thought I was testing power amps. . . not DAW's and D/A A/D converters. Pro-tools to my ear processes audio in a way that "flattens" the sound in a similar fashion, and this has been a subject of debate and friendly jabbing back and forth with a close friend who used to be an engineer at Digidesign.

I guess how these conversions and digital filters are handled makes a significant impact on the tone coming out the speakers, and an extremely compact unit like the Shuttle needs to do a lot of things to protect itself and the speakers it's driving.

Interesting that the Yorkville A4.4 amplifier I was using to test against is also a class D amplifier, and a generally similar conversion process happens in that power amp as well except I hear it as more open and 3 dimensional.

Well, this explains a lot of the mystery to me. Bottom line is I now know the LF boost is not necessarily a boost, and I get a flatter response with it pressed. However, if I find myself in a volume war on stage without an extension cab, pull it out because I'll damage the combo speaker if I push it at full range. The power amp section has a processing characteristic fundamentally that I probably don't like but it could very well be due to me being overly sensitive and the rest of the world doesn't care or even prefers it that way (just like tons of great recordings happen on protools and it's the industry standard). Prior to the power amp, my direct out and my effects loop are good to go and retain the 3 dimensionality and depth that I like, so my P/A and record feed are just fine.

The mid-frequency spike that I'm hearing could possibly be altered a bit with my pending tube replacement if the reports on forum about the JJ ECC83 altering the preamp's characteristics are in fact accurate.

NOTE: It might be a good idea to integrate what Agedhorse said concerning the L.F. Boost (extend) button into the manual, because I read nothing about a high pass filter point being shifted. From the manual:

"The L.F. BOOST adds a low frequency peaking gain in the 38-67 HZ band. This filter is especially effective when used with a 5 string bass."

This description comes across to me like a hyped bass response as opposed to extending a flatter bass response.

 

[bassnyc1]

Chunger:

First of all, I've been following your bass for newbies thread since it started. I want to applaud you for your intentions and effort.

Second of all I want to thank you for all the things I learned about set ups, etc on that thread.

Finally, I was glad when I first read that you were going to give Genz Benz a try. There is truly no better company out there and I'm sure Jeff and his team will work with you to get your project to where you hope it will be.

I am an unashamed fan boy of Genz Benz. I own the Shuttle 9.0 and the NeoX 212T cabinet and I hope to add a NeoX 112 in the future for smaller gigs and practicing. I think if you try the NeoX 112, you'll be completely satisfied and remember tha the Shuttle heads do not color the sound at all so you get the true sound o the bass coming out of the speakers or recording console. Additionally, the DI is the best in the business. Completely clean and efficient.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[oyobass]

This thread bears watching. The outcome may likely be my target "dream rig". Chunger's reasoned and methodical analasys of the pickups and setups of his bases have produced wonderful recorded results.
I expect no less when it comes to his selecting an amp and cab.

 

[KJung]

I went back and read the owner's manual. . . go figure. There's a lot of great info there. What nags at me is what I perceive as a loss of depth and clarity in the power amp section, and the cursory description of a class D amplifier said that it is pretty much a power digital to analog converter. So, essentially, my analog signal is converted to a digital PWM digital signal and then it's shifted up to higher voltage and re-constructed. . . and somewhere in there "processing techniques" are applied to the signal.

I guess I could be sensitive to any number of things that occur in this process that to my ear "flattens" the sound. . . it's interesting that the first thought that came to my mind when switching back and forth between an external power amplifier and the Shuttle's power section was, "It sounds like someone put my bass through pro-tools".. . but then, I dismissed the thought because I thought I was testing power amps. . . not DAW's and D/A A/D converters. Pro-tools to my ear processes audio in a way that "flattens" the sound in a similar fashion, and this has been a subject of debate and friendly jabbing back and forth with a close friend who used to be an engineer at Digidesign.

I guess how these conversions and digital filters are handled makes a significant impact on the tone coming out the speakers, and an extremely compact unit like the Shuttle needs to do a lot of things to protect itself and the speakers it's driving.

Interesting that the Yorkville A4.4 amplifier I was using to test against is also a class D amplifier, and a generally similar conversion process happens in that power amp as well except I hear it as more open and 3 dimensional.

Well, this explains a lot of the mystery to me. Bottom line is I now know the LF boost is not necessarily a boost, and I get a flatter response with it pressed. However, if I find myself in a volume war on stage without an extension cab, pull it out because I'll damage the combo speaker if I push it at full range. The power amp section has a processing characteristic fundamentally that I probably don't like but it could very well be due to me being overly sensitive and the rest of the world doesn't care or even prefers it that way (just like tons of great recordings happen on protools and it's the industry standard). Prior to the power amp, my direct out and my effects loop are good to go and retain the 3 dimensionality and depth that I like, so my P/A and record feed are just fine.

The mid-frequency spike that I'm hearing could possibly be altered a bit with my pending tube replacement if the reports on forum about the JJ ECC83 altering the preamp's characteristics are in fact accurate.

NOTE: It might be a good idea to integrate what Agedhorse said concerning the L.F. Boost (extend) button into the manual, because I read nothing about a high pass filter point being shifted. From the manual:

"The L.F. BOOST adds a low frequency peaking gain in the 38-67 HZ band. This filter is especially effective when used with a 5 string bass."

This description comes across to me like a hyped bass response as opposed to extending a flatter bass response.

+1 to the above. It is all about the execution with class D amps, and every company's product sounds different. It is impossible to talk about any general 'class D' tone, since all the class D amps sound SO different (Epifani, TecAmp, Markbass, Genz, GK... etc, etc.) Genz's approach is 'tight and bright' in general to my ear.

Also, +1 in that the bass boost on the 6 behaves and sounds EXACTLY like a 38-67hz peaking boost. WAY too extreme for my tastes, and in no way do I hear that as 'flattening and widening the low end. The 9 doesn't need it, and even better, the MAX heads have these 'voicing buttons' (which I find pretty useless... way too extreme, especially for cabs that are relatively even) as variable, which is very nice... changes them into a 'deep bass' variable EQ knob, a variable contour knob, and an variable upper treble boost.

 

[mccartneyman]

FWIW, how you set the amp depends in large part on what bass you use. I rotate through five basses in my setup, and I have to tweak the Shuttle a bit differently for each one. Most times I prefer the sound of the amp set flat across the board with the mid sweep set to 150. I scoop mids too, on most basses. However,I find that when I use my Epi Zenith chambered body bass. it likes the LF Extend pushbutton to be engaged. I recently did a TV show using just the Shuttle 6.0 with SLT112T cab and took the DI straight to the board using my Lakland 55-94. even squashed for TV, the bass sounded perfect.

 

[Medford Bassman]

I own a NEOX 112T and NEOX 212T and they're both great.

I agree with others when I engage the LF boost on my Shuttle 6.0 I get clean yet pronounced lower end out of the cabs. The 112T is especially impressive at smaller gigs.

 

[agedhorse]

Note that any boost that results from this process is on the order of a dB or two. It's not unlike the filters found in high end powered pro PA speakers, and they are probably better called "linearizing" filters or correction or alignment but those are much harder terms to market to the average bass player.

 

[wengr]

The Shuttle and ShuttleMax 6.0 use the same power amp module.

The 9.0 module is based on the same technology and share much of the same design but is considerably beefed up in several areas leading to the added perceived girth.

Is a model with dual or single 9.0 modules in a MAX format on the horizon? Sorry if this is asked frequently.

 

[SteveC]

Is a model with dual or single 9.0 modules in a MAX format on the horizon? Sorry if this is asked frequently.

NAMM is only a few months away...

 

[VroomVroom]

FWIW...

I've gigged the 6.0-12T roughly two-three dozen times. Sounds great in a mix...much better than it does solo. That was mentioned above by Ken, so no news flash there. IMO it's a wonderful small amp. I use it for practice, just about all rehearsals, and occasionally a few small gigs....the ones that are REALLY small, where convenience is more important than tone.

My main amp is the Shuttle 9.0. I've gigged it with an Aguilar GS112 and, more recently, with a Bergantino HT112ER. Sound = AMAZING. I love this rig. "My" tone is fully captured. These cabs are obviously much heavier, but the benefits in sound make up for the mass. The low end is uber-present, and there's just nothing missing across the frequency range.

Bottom line for me...the 6.0-12T is a great amp, for it's intended purpose. I greatly prefer the sound of the 9.0 + Berg, but when a single load-in/out 32lb box trumps the call for tone, I never hesitate to bring the Shuttle combo.

 

[agedhorse]

NAMM is only a few months away...

Any new product discussions are Roger's call. He mentioned that he would give TB'ers "first shot" when appropriate. NAMM is still several months away though

 

[SteveC]

I may change to a Genz/Berg rig some day, but for now, my 6.0-12T will have to do. It seems to do just fine.

 

[wengr]

Any new product discussions are Roger's call. He mentioned that he would give TB'ers "first shot" when appropriate. NAMM is still several months away though

well nobody said no

 

[LiamPodmore]

Search for the Mini Rigs of Doom Thread, you'll find all you need to know about portable mini rigs in there.

Liam

 

[ErikP.Bass]

Just got a Shuttle 6.0 to pair with my Bergantino HT112....and this thread is making me think I should have gone for the 9.0 for the deeper lows. I personally like the look of the black chassis better too.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Just got a Shuttle 6.0 to pair with my Bergantino HT112....and this thread is making me think I should have gone for the 9.0 for the deeper lows. I personally like the look of the black chassis better too.

Perhaps a shootout is in order.

How does your 6.0/HT112 combo sound in a mix?

The Ampeg 8x10 lacks deep lows too but it sits above a kick at all times.

 

[chunger]

Ok. . . checked Fedex today to check on some packages and to my surprise, it said my tubedepot order was delivered the day before yesterday. . . so, I went to check my porch, and sure enough, in the corner was a little box that Santa must have dropped off.

So, out of the cradle and onto the bench goes the little Shuttle.

I removed all of the little self-tapping screws on the top face to see how difficult this would be for someone who has no clue about electronics like me. . . and it looked quite straight forward, neat, and uncluttered inside. There's the preamp, there's the EQ, there's the power amp section.

And, while I'm here, I might as well take a peek around. . . look, but don't touch I do this because I have friends who actually understand this stuff and they can sometimes tell me things about the quality of devices and how they might sound by looking at the components used.

And, after peeking around a bit, I set about removing the old tube. First step was to loosen and remove the shock mount on the top of the tube. There was a nut holding the mount onto the board, and I don't have a set of small sockets, so I thought I'd try and see if the socket of a normal screwdriver with removable bits would work. . . and it did .

So, the bracket comes off:

Old Ruby tube comes out. I walked it out of the socket nice and slow making sure to strain the board it was mounted to a little as possible.

And, in with the new JJ ECC83 tube.

So being as I know nothing about electronics, I was one of those suckers that bought the "gold plated" one instead of the regular one. In hindsight, I realize it doesn't make a bit of difference and I should have saved myself $10. . . but live and learn . I did order a "low microphonics" test on this tube because I was reading on thread that matched plates didn't matter in this circuit at all, but being as this sits on top of an amp that's vibrating, microphonics would probably be a bad thing.

Oh well. . . in you go.

Ok. . . this made an enormous impact on how the amp sounds. I didn't have much time tonight, so I only had time to set it flat and see what we had. It's much more open now. To me the top sounds a lot more extended and open. The bottom has changed significantly. It is not nearly as thin as it was before. In fact, I'd characterize it now as more tight than lacking. To my taste, it has moved from being "a problem" to merely being voiced not as deep as some. The middle has smoothed out a lot. Upper midrange hash --> gone. Harmonics are ringing out much better than before, and I generally feel the amp is now more transparent.

Again, bypassing the power amp section and driving the speakers with the Yorkville power amp cleared things up even more, so I do believe the power section is still not as transparent as some, but we don't have the compounded issue of upper-mid spike and veiled power amp that resulted in hashiness.

Before, I had to EQ the amp (bass boost, bass EQ + a few clicks, a bit of upper midrange EQ'd - a few clicks, treble - a few clicks) in order to get what I felt was a functional sound, and even then, it was functional. .. not necessarily inspiring.

Now, with the amp set flat, I feel much more connected and the sound of my bass is coming through the speakers. In fact, I think I actually like the amp now. . . quite a bit even. Instead of defensive EQ, I have a great sound flat, and feel like I can go in and explore a bit with the options that are built in to find some fun settings.

What a profound difference!

Now that this amp has made it past my "living room" test, I'm going to take it out gigging a bit. I know that many people say you have to hear an amp in context before making any decisions about it, but I think a sit down listen by itself in your house is a valid 1st test. If the amp doesn't inspire you in a practice environment, I think it is doing the player a great dis-service. I honestly think that I am not terribly picky about amplification equipment. . . even though I probably come across in this thread like a huge picky cry-baby whining about this tone and that harshness, and "there's not enough bass response". . . but all I really need to have in a rig I can feel good about recommending and selling is something that is transparent enough for the instrument to read, gives good depth and articulation, and has good power. Once those are in place, I am extremely tolerant of varied voicings and flavors. This particular amp is now very promising with the JJ ECC83 tube, and I will advance it to hard gig testing to see how it wrings out.

I feel the 12T cab was not designed for as broad an application as I feel I need, so I'm keeping the Shuttle 6.0 head for further testing and trading the cab out for an Aguilar GS112 for now. I am seriously thinking about securing a NeoX 12T cab to hear how that holds up as well because I don't know if Aguilar will be willing to work with me, and I'm already in process of talking with Genz Benz. As suggested by others on forum, the Bergantino HT112ER looks to be a fantastic option, but may not be priced where I need for a "newbie friendly" setup where the Aguilar would probably work just fine for for most people and cost a good bit less.

 

[Erik the Red]

To echoe the hoards, I'm both delighted and fascinated with what you're doing, Chunger.
I hope to get some cash togeather before i email you some questions about pickups. But here is no place for that.
I'm quite pleased that the JJ made a big difference, and the rumors of the pre-amp tube being ineffective are proved untrue.
I think that you're generosity and meticulousness demands manufacturers' attention and they should be more than willing to work with you to get the best product at the right price.
Well done, keep at it!