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Genz Benz testing issues and general rig advise needed

I only have the directions for the LMII, so not sure about the F1 (I didn't post that picture.. that was from the OP). I assume he removed the jumper for the picture.

I changed my LMII to pre EQ (very easy... just move a jumper), and used that on front of house supported gigs prior to getting my F500. Never was comfortable enough to open my F1 without that diagram/instruction sheet:p

Hmm. . . interesting. I did not remove the jumper. Previous owner must have. If it did change this amp to pre-EQ that works for me. I prefer it that way. I don't have the manual. Just thought I'd open it up and take a little lookeee loo. . . so curious about these little things.
 
Hmm. . . interesting. I did not remove the jumper. Previous owner must have. If it did change this amp to pre-EQ that works for me. I prefer it that way. I don't have the manual. Just thought I'd open it up and take a little lookeee loo. . . so curious about these little things.

No info on this in the manual... it is technically not considered a 'user modification' (probably due to the lawyers:D).

I again don't have the diagram for the F1, but would be glad to send you the PDF on the LMII (ID post to pre, and effects loop from series to parallel) if you PM your email to me. That might be helpful if you know your way around these boards (which I don't!).

K

Edit: All manuals can be downloaded from the Markbass Website... nice spec details and EQ plots, etc.
 
+1 There is a simple jumper that changes the LMII and F1's DI from pre to post. This has been changed to a more typical rear panel switch on the updated models (F500 and the LMIII series of amps).

Did'nt the F1 come stock with a post eq DI ? I know when running my DI from the F1 into a power amp, all eq controls work.
 
I again don't have the diagram for the F1, but would be glad to send you the PDF on the LMII (ID post to pre, and effects loop from series to parallel) if you PM your email to me. That might be helpful if you know your way around these boards (which I don't!).
I'd be interested in that info on the LMII, I'll pm my address
 
I'm not saying it's a fair fight, but I needed to know. . .

p265093206-5.jpg


It was actually not much of the fight. . . the poor f1 got buried IMO on all counts. . . transparency, headroom, tone shaping. The general vibe of both amplifiers is a little similar. Both pretty straight up solid state "flat-ish". The f1 sounds like it's boxed up on both ends (treble and bass) and all around has less depth than the WW. Test cab was ACME B2 which does take advantage of extra headroom.

But, one of these amps you can actually buy and either get repaired or replaced if needs be. . . and the other one, well. . . good luck :rollno:
 
Interesting reading your thoughts, Chunger. It would appear that you are a pretty discerning guy when it comes to sound quality. I've often felt that consumer bass gear missed the mark as far as high quality audio reproduction goes. When my Eden WT-500 arrived years ago, I was flabbergasted by the sheer amount of idle hiss in a supposedly professional amplifier.
 
Interesting reading your thoughts, Chunger. It would appear that you are a pretty discerning guy when it comes to sound quality. I've often felt that consumer bass gear missed the mark as far as high quality audio reproduction goes. When my Eden WT-500 arrived years ago, I was flabbergasted by the sheer amount of idle hiss in a supposedly professional amplifier.

I don't think I have as keen an ear or as much experience with various product as others on the forum here. Prior to my little recent "basses for newbies" project I'd poke my head up every 5 years or so when my amp broke to find a suitable replacement and then happily head back into my hole. There is so much more to gain by improving the player at this point than the equipment.

The reason I've been on a testing rampage is if I am to push a new player who doesn't really know yet what they want or need into a purchase, that to me is a heavy responsibility and I don't want to do anything that would hinder the player's development. So, I'd better be darn sure what I'm recommending is the best fitting, most cost-effective option to get the job done for the long haul. . . so that as the player develops, he/she is not encumbered at any point by sub-par equipment.

That's why I've been searching for "middle of the road" options that would work in the most varied environments as opposed to niche-type options.
 
I'm not saying it's a fair fight, but I needed to know. . .

p265093206-5.jpg


It was actually not much of the fight. . . the poor f1 got buried IMO on all counts. . . transparency, headroom, tone shaping. The general vibe of both amplifiers is a little similar. Both pretty straight up solid state "flat-ish". The f1 sounds like it's boxed up on both ends (treble and bass) and all around has less depth than the WW. Test cab was ACME B2 which does take advantage of extra headroom.

But, one of these amps you can actually buy and either get repaired or replaced if needs be. . . and the other one, well. . . good luck :rollno:

Funny, I played a Walter Woods Ultra for years, and found the F1 MUCH better on the gig for me (although, again, the Acme is a wild card since that is such an unusually voiced cab). With a more typical 4ohm bass box, while I did find the F1 tighter down low and not as airy/sizzly up top, I found that to be a good thing. I always felt my Walter had a hole that I just couldn't plug in the 'meat area' of the instrument... that low mid/upper bass sort of thing that the F1/F500 just does so great.

However, the Walter was great, and I gigged one or the other model for almost 20 years. Don't miss it at all:smug: However, I use relatively high SPL 4ohm boxes. I did find the Walter to sound more full and deeper and louder into a large 8ohm box or my Acme cab.... so +1 there!
 
Funny, I played a Walter Woods Ultra for years, and found the F1 MUCH better on the gig for me (although, again, the Acme is a wild card since that is such an unusually voiced cab). With a more typical 4ohm bass box, while I did find the F1 tighter down low and not as airy/sizzly up top, I found that to be a good thing. I always felt my Walter had a hole that I just couldn't plug in the 'meat area' of the instrument... that low mid/upper bass sort of thing that the F1/F500 just does so great.

However, the Walter was great, and I gigged one or the other model for almost 20 years. Don't miss it at all:smug: However, I use relatively high SPL 4ohm boxes. I did find the Walter to sound more full and deeper and louder into a large 8ohm box or my Acme cab.... so +1 there!

Ok. . . very interesting point here is that I've been voicing my basses (pickups particularly) with a pretty good low-mid forward bump which seems to work very well on track in the studio in most situations to make the bass be present in the mix right off the bat without adding EQ. In live gig testing, this has proven to be good practice as the basses tend to sit very well in the band. This is why I did not like the stock Nordstrand NJ4 and had coil (shape, depth, wire) and magnet specs altered to voice the pickups differently.

The ACME B2 can be argued to have a hole there (mids). . . the Accugroove tri 112 and Aguilar GS112 both may also have a scoop there, but with the way I've voiced my bass builds, they even out nicely. With the F1, I can afford to dial a bit of that mid back, and the sound with the EQ's set flat when played with my basses is generally pretty mid-forward in a good way. Even at relative low volumes, the bass easily claws its way forward in live situations.

For price/performance, right now for a newbie, I'm thinking it's hard to beat the Markbass F1/F500/LMII/LMIII paired with the Aguilar GS112. Add another GS112 for larger venue, and it should get the job done 90% of the time at least. That's what I think I'm going to start recommending even though I carry neither brand. I think the value and flexibility there is hard to match.

Stepping up, I think I'm going to go the route of developing my own amp solution. Who knows where that will land? It will definitely not be priced as friendly though!

BTW, personally, I am now gigging F1 and Aguilar GS112. The band has responded positively so far to this setup. It is a keeper and I am really enjoying the setup. I feel the tweeter is a little cheap on the Aggie, so at home for pickup/bass development work, I'm still generally listening through the B2 because I like what the silk tweeter and mid-driver are able to articulate for me in terms of nuance and transparency especially when sitting relatively close to the speaker cab, but the "cheap" horn on the Aggie cranks out more volume live and without loads and loads of headroom, I have to think about efficiency when running the F1 more than before.

I do not personally gig the Walter Woods. Just listen to it for testing and at gigs where other people are playing (and I'm making minute action adjustments between sets on basses :hiding:).
 
Ok. . . very interesting point here is that I've been voicing my basses (pickups particularly) with a pretty good low-mid forward bump which seems to work very well on track in the studio in most situations to make the bass be present in the mix right off the bat without adding EQ. In live gig testing, this has proven to be good practice as the basses tend to sit very well in the band. This is why I did not like the stock Nordstrand NJ4 and had coil (shape, depth, wire) and magnet specs altered to voice the pickups differently.

The ACME B2 can be argued to have a hole there (mids). . . the Accugroove tri 112 and Aguilar GS112 both may also have a scoop there, but with the way I've voiced my bass builds, they even out nicely. With the F1, I can afford to dial a bit of that mid back, and the sound with the EQ's set flat when played with my basses is generally pretty mid-forward in a good way. Even at relative low volumes, the bass easily claws its way forward in live situations.

For price/performance, right now for a newbie, I'm thinking it's hard to beat the Markbass F1/F500/LMII/LMIII paired with the Aguilar GS112. Add another GS112 for larger venue, and it should get the job done 90% of the time at least. That's what I think I'm going to start recommending even though I carry neither brand. I think the value and flexibility there is hard to match.

Stepping up, I think I'm going to go the route of developing my own amp solution. Who knows where that will land? It will definitely not be priced as friendly though!

BTW, personally, I am now gigging F1 and Aguilar GS112. The band has responded positively so far to this setup. It is a keeper and I am really enjoying the setup. I feel the tweeter is a little cheap on the Aggie, so at home for pickup/bass development work, I'm still generally listening through the B2 because I like what the silk tweeter and mid-driver are able to articulate for me in terms of nuance and transparency especially when sitting relatively close to the speaker cab, but the "cheap" horn on the Aggie cranks out more volume live and without loads and loads of headroom, I have to think about efficiency when running the F1 more than before.

I do not personally gig the Walter Woods. Just listen to it for testing and at gigs where other people are playing (and I'm making minute action adjustments between sets on basses :hiding:).

Makes total sense. I enjoy your thread and will keep an eye on it! We seem to hear things pretty much the same way.

I've also moved to a much more low mid present and less 'airy top end' tone since my Walter Woods days. Not better or worse in an absolute sense, but I too find that I can sit in the mix very nicely, and actually get by with a smaller box and less power nicely!
 
PS Totally agree that in a solo situation at moderate volume, it is pretty hard to beat the Acme B210... just a beautiful, extended, even, organic beautiful box. I found that when I got my B210's out in the room and at volume in a mix, that small mid driver and tweeter could not quite propel that tone into an ugly room as well as I had hoped, but still amazing boxes for what they are.

Not sure if you've run across my Audiokinesis 'Thunderchild' thread. That is a kind of 'halfway between the Acme and GS112' sort of box, and I'm really digging it. Low SPL, high xmax, but tuned to around 50hz down low versus that huge low end extension of the Acme, and much more 'even' than the GS112 in the mids. It uses a proprietary 4ohm 3012LF driver and a big PA type horn crossed over relatively low... so it is a bit tighter than the B210, and a bit more 'traditional' in the upper mids, but with a very smooth transition and very nice off axis response. 34 pounds, and the 4ohm impedance with the super duper driver (huge xmax and power handling) results in it almost performing as well as two more traditional 112's stacked.

Very impressive little box.... not nearly as 'pure' as the Acme, but in a mix, that isn't a bad thing.

Just FYI... lot's of nice stuff coming out based on these amazing Eminence LF drivers at the moment, including a new Acme 112 that I haven't heard yet.
 
Shuttle = louder IMO. Note, if you were to push either head at full volume into my 4 ohm 2x10, you would risk breaking things so I did not do that. But the Shuttle did seem to drive more easily especially into 8 ohm loads. Someone running a larger speaker array would be able to give a more concise answer.

F1= loud enough for most uses for me :smug: