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Genz Benz testing issues and general rig advise needed

#41
I took the shuttle 6.0 head only today out for a live test drive at a church gig. This gig is played at low to moderate volume, and instrumentation was piano, keyboards, acoustic guitar and vocals. . . I would describe it as your normal boring pop type music.

I have traded the 12T cabinet for a Aguilar GS112 here on TB which I think will suit my application a bit better, so the Shuttle head was driving a 4 ohm ACME B2. I am thinking to try the NeoX 112T though if it's in the same general ballpark as the Aggie GS 112.

While not all that bad, I wouldn't characterize the combination as brilliant. The bass that was played is a P-bass (#4).

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This was recorded wide open, but for this gig, I usually clamp down the tone knob about 1/4-1/3 turn and use the Timbre or "old school" knob just a hair on Thunderfunk to dial back the growl on this bass a little bit because this bass has some serious growl and can jump out and bite you.

At any rate, the combo sounded. . . well, thin yet warm. I feel like there's plenty of power behind this amp, but it's driving a robust, full range cab (with force also) yet manages to sound like a small combo. If I engage the bass boost, I get too much sub-sub bass hype. If I dis-engage the bass boot and roll on a little bass knob (80 hz center?), I wasn't getting enough in the low end extension.

What does a guy need to do to just get flat? The head has enough juice to do the job, it's just voiced funky. I'm an adult and can take responsibility for blowing up speakers if driven past limit. I've run this cab with 1000 watts behind it responsibly for a long time without incident. I like the way headroom sounds on it.

Having the head disconnected from the combo, I can really feel the weight and size advantage. I walked in in 1 trip today. Double sided gig bag on my back with bass in one side and amp in the other. . . a lighter package than 2 basses in the same case. . . and 2x10 cab in hand. . . easy.

Hoping the 9.0 is voiced flatter. . . I'm wondering if there's any caps and resistors on the board that can be swapped to make the Shuttle 6.0 flat. . . understanding full well that I'd nuke the warranty.
 
#42
My Thunderfunk is en-route to it's motherland to get fixed. . . i was just thinking about all the fuss (inside my mind today) about flat, flat, flat. . . whey can't I just have flat?. . . and came across this post by David Funk here on forum:

Thunderfunk said:
I quote this because Mark Wright at AccuGroove says the same thing about flat EQ. Let's start from there.

Some amps sound good with some speakers because the manufacturer compensated for some "deficiency" in the amp or speaker by adjusting the matching component. Now you know why your results vary. It depends on what combination you have. AccuGroove have been described by me as being "flat." That can be misinterpreted as "lifeless, sterile, etc." That's not what it means. If the speaker lacks low end the amp can be adjusted to use it's "power" to compensate. With that power being used for something other than flat power out, your total power out is less. Why do so many customers say they run my amp flat? That it sounds louder than it's wattage? Plug 'N Play? Hard to get a bad tone? etc.? Because I'm not compensating for a matching speaker, and I've made efforts to improve the QUALITY of the tone, and not just the "frequency response." Same with AccuGroove and Bergantino. Listen to how sweet Jim's cabs are. It's more than frequency response. What AccuGrooves are supreme at is full frequency power out. A faithfullness that puts the bass guitar, and the amp into the air. The cab becomes invisible. BUT tweak a little EQ and it goes into hyperdive because it started from "flat."

To summarize I'm commenting on the use of as little EQ as possible. It's the best place to start.

Dave
Click to expand...

I've never had to EQ my TF. . . ok, I did on a broken B2 that had a broken crossover and no tweeter or mid driver, but that's extreme. As such, I've never failed to get a great tone on it from one of my basses even though the exotic sandwitch 6 varies wildly from the current traditional ones. Ah, it would be nice to have that "easy" button for a newbie, but I fear the price paid would be well outside of the parameters I've set for this project, and in a lot of ways, getting 70% there on tone will get the job done and well enough for a player to progress and develop unhindered.

At the price point of the Shuttle and the overall scale, and production process, there has to be slick engineering and compromises made where TF has the luxury of spec'ing more towards "ideal". For instance, it's been mentioned that the Shuttles have been engineered to be less tube sensitive, so the one with a great tube will not fully maximize its tone, but the one with a more sub-standard part will not suck too badly. A good pre in the studio by itself even if you do a kit and are just buying the parts is a huge chunk of the cost of the entire Shuttle head that has pre, EQ, and a pretty big power amp. .. and can darn near fit in your pocket.

Eh. . . I'm just rambling. I'm gonna go spend more time with the Shuttle 6.0 and really have my hopes up about the incoming Shuttle 9.0 (flat! . .. please?)
 
#43
chunger said:
My Thunderfunk is en-route to it's motherland to get fixed. . . i was just thinking about all the fuss (inside my mind today) about flat, flat, flat. . . whey can't I just have flat?. . . and came across this post by David Funk here on forum:
Click to expand...

Again, not sure how many different ways we can all say it. 'Flat' is only one part of the issue. For example, the Markbass LMII/III tests out very flat within its range, but of course still has its own unique tone due to the voicing of the pre (i.e., the lo and hi pass filter settings, the type of circuit and 'distortion/character' built into the mids, etc.). If you want relatively flat (i.e., a flat response on the scope with the knobs set neutral) in a micro head, and a nice usable low end extension that isn't crazy low nor chopped off too high, that is a wonderful option.

The shuttle 6 was developed and designed to pair up with the small shuttle cabs, hence the low end was tailored to work optimally with those low end rolled off cabs. Also, like any other amp head, Genz has its own inherent tone profile (which to my ear is tight down low, a bit bumped in the upper mids, and a nice dollup of warm grind in the mids). Their cabs are beautifully voiced to take advantage of that.

Thunderfunk is another amp that has a VERY strong built in voice... similar to the TC RH450.... somewhat attenuated deep low end and upper treble, and a bit of 'warmth/distortion' in the mids, with a dip in the upper mids (hence why so many describe both the TF and RH as 'tight but warm).

The EA iAmp is another amp that seems relatively 'flat', but sounds very different from the Markbass heads due to the extreme width of the tone (the low pass and hi pass almost don't exist... similar to the original SWR amps with that 20hz to 20K range) and the mids are totally pure and clean (resulting in many calling those heads 'sterile').

'Flat' is really not what you want, but rather you want a head that sounds good to you:smug:. The 9 is no more flat than the 6, but does have that low end attenuation removed a bit, which makes it sound like it has more balls (along with the increase in power). It does sound a bit more even, since that upper mid brightness is balanced a bit better with the low end. However, the tone is 80% the same as the 6... it sounds like a Genz, as it should.


PS Regarding Dave's 'Accugroove' statement, IMO that is rubbish. If you've played the range of Accugroove cabs, you know that each one sounds quite different from the other. Which one of the AC cabs within the line is flat? I totally agree that the TF heads match up beautifully with some of the Accugroove cabs, but that's the classic 'mix and match' of marrying a voiced head (they all are) to a voiced cab (they all are). I guess your Acme comes closes to 'flat on the scope' from what I understand, but even that is problematic, since the low end is so extended and the mid driver is so small that the top end can get overwhelmed in a live setting (i.e., that 'flat on the scope' cab quickly sounds 'not flat' with most amp heads in many rooms IME).
 
#44
A couple of points, AFAIK, it is much easier to build an amplifier with a flat frequency response than a flat speaker. However, frequency response does not tell the whole story about the sound of a given amplifier. The GB design is considerably newer, and I would guess that it is no less sophisticated than a TF (and perhaps more advanced). The difference is that it was designed with different goals in mind, and perhaps goals which are not quite in line with the OP's. Will be interesting to hear about the 9.0.
 
#48
The 6.0 combo gets a lot done for me. Tone wise my Smith's and '65 precision sound great with minimal to know eq. which I think for a compact amp is great.
The 9.0 is a whole different animal. I run my 9.0 into 1 or dual Uber210's. A single one at 500 watts is a relatively compact A** kicker.
 
#49
I managed five minutes at bedroom volume into my midget t.
At that low volume it needed a fair bit of treble boost and sounded very punchy and flexible. I don't find the switches too extreme at low volumes but we'll see.
I do miss separate low and hi mid controls though. Only having a sweepable one sucks a bit cause I can't boost the low mid and cut the high. It's pick and choose!
It felt loud so low on the dial although the preamp volume confused me, cause with the gain set low you loose load of volume anyway so it seems a tad redundant.
Beautiful build, although goodness knows how I'm gonna get it to sit on top of the midget, on the handle side the handle is too high, and on the top it's too sloppy, and I found my sorbothane feet melted the finish !! Hmm maybe russ Andrews oak cone feet of something.
A proper review will happen presently
 
#50
The shuttle 12t combo cab has been traded for an Aguilar GS112.

The head has moved forward out of the living room to test "in the wilds". Jasaman wanted to test out one of the latest finished builds which was interesting because it's the first test of the custom Nordstrand P/J configuration.

Anyways, out to Madrone in SF for one of Jasaman's regular instrumental funk gigs with "Steppin'".

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Rig was Accugroove Tri 112 8ohm. The amp gave a warm tone that favored the tube being driven a bit (passive bass), and it worked, but was to my ear uninspiring. The bottom and punch seemed satisfactory, but the overall tone felt to me a bit tilted with a bunch of strange things happening up top. This amp would have carried the gig without issue, but switching back to Jasaman's normal Walter Woods was an epic improvement. I don't know of any area of tone where I did not prefer the WW head. Granted, we're talking about 3x the cost, but the Markbass LMII when tested in the same setting held together much better against the same reference and it sells at a lower price point than the Genz Benz.

Perhaps my basses are voiced to match the test rigs, or the Shuttle 6.0 just isn't for me I'm not sure. I know now that the Shuttle 6.0 is not a head I personally feel comfortable promoting. I feel it's more a niche tone voiced for a specific combo that might sound tremendous for a specific task, but for an all-around tool, I'm looking elsewhere. Is it bad equipment? No, like I mentioned above, the head would have carried the gig, and you can do far, far worse with your money. Obviously, the form factor is awesome. After looking inside the box, it's obvious that even further space optimizations are possible (perhaps not economical). This is a head I really, really, really wanted to like for a lot of reasons, but in the end, I'm going to have to part paths and continue the search.

The Shuttle 6.0 head is going up for trade or sale. I still have hopes that the 9.0 will work better and I will give it a good go when it arrives.
 
#52
Don't forget to remove the JJ before you sell it. The 9.0 is warmer and beefier than the 6.0. It is my faorite sitting on top of anything I have plugged it in to...but by far the Uber210. It just acts like a BIG rig. I am now playing my '65 Pbass a lot more and really dig it. If you were closer I'd invite you over for a test drive.
 
#55
Looks like supplies are catching up with demands a bit. . . test unit #2 arrived, and I am cautiously optimistic.

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There is certainly a lot more going on in this unit than the 6.0 which looked pretty sparse on the interior. . . and definitely a bit of a weight increase. Doesn't matter in the least for me. This amp is still stupidly lightweight. Anything under 10-15 lbs. at this size is a complete non-issue for me and I consider this amp as portable as they come.

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From experience putting the stock Ruby tube back into the Shuttle 6.0 prior to trading it, I knew the JJ tube would suit my taste better. Being as these are pretty much the same preamp, I just went ahead and did it from the get-go on the 9.0.

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Initial impressions of this amp are MUCH more favorable than the Shuttle 6.0 to me. The lowered high pass filter point made all the difference in the world to me. The mid-forward voicing is still there, but whatever the folks at Genz did to the high pass combined with the power amp improvements are working for me. More testing to come, but my initial feeling is this amp will work great for my needs. I have very few complaints about it set flat, and tweaking around with the EQ gives me some flavors to play with. My like for this unit has little to do with the increased power as the 6.0 was plenty loud. It has everything to do with the voicing. The 9.0 just has the volume knob a few clicks lower than the 6.0.

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#56
chunger said:
Initial impressions of this amp are MUCH more favorable than the Shuttle 6.0 to me. The lowered high pass filter point made all the difference in the world to me. The mid-forward voicing is still there, but whatever the folks at Genz did to the high pass combined with the power amp improvements are working for me. More testing to come, but my initial feeling is this amp will work great for my needs. I have very few complaints about it set flat, and tweaking around with the EQ gives me some flavors to play with. My like for this unit has little to do with the increased power as the 6.0 was plenty loud. It has everything to do with the voicing. The 9.0 just has the volume knob a few clicks lower than the 6.0.
Click to expand...
While I've read many mentions of it here, I believe (could be wrong) I recall here someone from Genz stating that there is no LP filter point designed to work with the small GB cabs on the 3.0 or 6.0. Is there or not? And if there is, does it apply to the Max versions? I have no way to hear these things for myself, and can't tell if all the positive comments for the 9.0 are due to the LP filter point, the additional power, or the different power module used in the 9.0?
 
#57
For accuracy sake, you mean HIGH pass filter and all of our amps (as well as many of the higher quality amps by other manufacturers) use them in varying ways. To clarify, there are 2 different high pass filters on each Shuttle and ShuttleMax product, they are part of the LF Boost (originally called LF Extend but we got tired of explaining how the function worked) filter. When the switch is out, the high pass filter is engaged af a frequency F1, and when the switch is in, the high pass filter is engaged at a frequency F2. F1 is always a little higher than F2, generally about 1/3 octave. There are other things going on with this function as well, so it's not quite as simple as this but if you have a larger cabinet with good LF response, engaging the LF Boost (extend) function shifts the HPF down.

The Shuttle 3.0 has HPF's that are scaled up a little higher than the other amps because they are really targeted at players with sub-compact cabinets BUT with the LF extend function engaged the HPF is still down in the high 30's or very low 40's, so they do work well with larger cabinets.

The Shuttle 6.0 and 9.0 have HPF's that are very close to each other (only a few Hz apart) but with the LF extend filter engaged, the 9.0 extends down another few Hz lower still. Some of the feeling of heft is due to a really large power supply and power amp so there's dynamics and headroom for days on the 9.0.

So, when comparing these amps and playing them through larger cabinets, use the LF Boost (extend) engaged which gives the lower HPF point.

Hope this helps.
 
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#60
KJung said:
So, be careful comparing at home in a solo setting. A deeper voiced cab will always sound better in that situation. In an actual performance situation, often times your preference will flip.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and that principle also holds for amp settings. I find that at home I prefer the sound of my Shuttle 9 through my Flite 1x15/3015 with the LF Boost button engaged and a bit of bass boost (1:00 on the knob) but on most gigs I simply disengage the LF Boost button for a more band/room friendly tone.

When I used a Shuttle 6 I also noticed a lack of low end extension compared to my previous amp (AMP BH-420) unless I engaged the LF Boost and set the bass control to a more extreme boost position.

I used an Acme B2 for about a year before ditching it after being frustrated with what I found to be an overall lack of driver efficiency.
 

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