Genzler Amplification Club

[Hawk620]

Hey folks, I'm posting this here instead of in a general thread because I'm leaning toward ordering a pair of BA-10-2 cabs. I know that they're not good enough for Metallica at the EnormoDome, but if I'm doing the math right then they should be capable of about 130 dB with a 500W amp... 300 watts handling each at 97 dB sensitivity. Are they loud enough to play with real bands or not? Seems like most folks here would say no. I don't understand.

I own a pair of BA10-2-S2 cabs along with an MG350 Head. They will handle a lot more than some believe they will based purely on their compact size and they are quite lightweight as well. It will be a very efficient rig as well because the two 10"s are only being asked to handle the low end. The array speakers are taking care of the rest and their horizontal dispersion is amazing. I can easily stand 45° off center and it sounds no different than if I'm standing directly in front of the speakers. They can easily handle a 500w head as well.

Another big selling point for my own needs besides portability is that I can use just one cab and the head when that's all that's needed. With the bracket that affixes the head to the speaker cab it makes a very nice little 23lb combo that can handle a rehearsal and low volume gigs and both when I need the full 350w and both cabs. IME most any gig needing more than that is supported by FOH sound so the rig then becomes a personal stage monitor the entire band can also hear due to the horizontal dispersion. I don't believe you'll be unhappy with a pair of BA 110 cabs sound wise and they fit your need weight wise as well.

 

[Fishface]

With the weight restrictions I believe you mentioned (20lb Max) two separate BA10 cabs should work for your expected professional shows. The “professionals “ know that a proper sound system is required and that will carry the venue.
If you’re playing with pros in a small venue with little sound support then they should all be playing at a reasonable volume.
It seems that you’re putting a lot of qualifiers/expectations in your statements ,but you’re also receiving some good real world advise from experienced users of the same setup you mentioned. They all seem to agree that the two BA10-2 cabs with 500 watts should work.

 

[Hawk620]

We're simply trying to provide some reality on live sound and help answer your questions about your needs. As to the question "where would I need more than that" the answer is probably very few places where you'd be playing for thousands of people and you need more stage volume and headroom than you would need in even a larger club or other indoor venue.

If you never see yourself needing that kind of stage volume you don't need more power or speakers. Keep in mind that some play larger rigs because they always have even though they may only be using a fraction of that rigs total capability. Their stage sound level may be identical to those of a much smaller rig. It's like the comparison of horsepower in two cars. One is 600hp the other 200hp but driving on a city street at 45mph both are using much the same amount of horsepower and traveling at the same speed.

Much the same tends to be true as far as what your audience hears. In a smaller or even medium size club playing in a band that plays at normal volume levels for such venues you won't be using anywhere near 500w of power nor will the guy with the 1000w amp be using more than you will. I find I can get by quite nicely with 350w and dual BA10-2-S2 cabs and there's a really good chance you will too.

 

[Hawk620]

What I'm asking for is help understanding what happens at real professional gigs. I'm not yet good enough to play at a real venue or hire a sound company. I have no experience in that world. I have never had a real sound check or real PA or real sound tech helping - I have always had to figure it out myself, on stage, while performing. The situations that you guys describe here are completely foreign to me.

I want to be able to say "Yes" in the unlikely event that someone ever wants to hire me to play with a real band on a real stage tonight - and I want to show up prepared and sounding good, not scrambling to buy and dial in all new gear.

Can I do that with a pair of series 2 BA-10-2 cabs and a ~500 W amp or not? If not, how much volume capability at what distance do I need?

OK, let's start with the first barrier we encounter. You have a limitation on how much you can lift. So with that in mind we've given you suggestions that will meet those limitations. The BA10-2-S2 cab weighs 19lbs. You can carry two separately and use them with your 500w head and it will produce 500w at 4 ohms. If that head will run a 2.67 ohm load you can run 3 cabs each still weighing just 19lbs each. The power output is still limited to the 500w that amp produces but by adding cone area from another cab you gain 3dB in volume.

Until you can lift more than 20lbs discussing other cabs that weigh more is useless. You can't lift them.

I've been a bassist for over 50 years. I've played tiny clubs with 100 souls or less and and I've played outdoor venues in front of thousands of people. I've played 100w SS rigs and 1000w SS rigs as well as 300w tube driven rigs w/eight 10" speakers. Then as now most bass rigs are comprised of a bass head and speaker cabs. My advice to you is to buy what you need now and step up later if you ever find you need more than the two BA10-2-S2 cabs that should serve you well. They are what I use and I would add a third cab and a more powerful bass head if I ever again found the need again. That would give me 800w and three BA10 cabs.

Forget your calculations. You don't need them because they are incorrect. No one needs a rig that produces 145-150dB on stage and no one plays one either. In reality they don't exist. My point is that you're not gonna obsolete those BA10 cabs down the road. You can add a third cab to them if needed or you add a 2x10 cab and you have four 10" speakers and greater versatility. On top of that there are also cabs with 12" and 15" speakers available as well but all weight more than your 20lb limit. So just stick with what works now and expand later if needed just like any of the rest of us would do. This is the very best advice I can give you.

 

[agedhorse]

We're simply trying to provide some reality on live sound and help answer your questions about your needs. As to the question "where would I need more than that" the answer is probably very few places where you'd be playing for thousands of people and you need more stage volume and headroom than you would need in even a larger club or other indoor venue.

If you never see yourself needing that kind of stage volume you don't need more power or speakers. Keep in mind that some play larger rigs because they always have even though they may only be using a fraction of that rigs total capability. Their stage sound level may be identical to those of a much smaller rig. It's like the comparison of horsepower in two cars. One is 600hp the other 200hp but driving on a city street at 45mph both are using much the same amount of horsepower and traveling at the same speed.

Much the same tends to be true as far as what your audience hears. In a smaller or even medium size club playing in a band that plays at normal volume levels for such venues you won't be using anywhere near 500w of power nor will the guy with the 1000w amp be using more than you will. I find I can get by quite nicely with 350w and dual BA10-2-S2 cabs and there's a really good chance you will too.

Yet there are also players who find that a BA410 and MG-800 are necessary for situations they work in.

Different situations require different tools… if all you have is a hammer, every screw looks like a nail.

Back in the Genz Benz days, Jeff built some guitar cabinets for George Lynch (G-Flex), 212’s, that George used multiples of on stage. I provided sound for one of George’s Lynch Mob dates in a medium size venue (~1000 seats) and it was a loud show, even by my standards. Big bass rig, loud, everything in your face. Why? Because that’s what the audience wanted, that’s what the impact needed to achieve the band’s needs.

Like I said before, every situation is different, small rigs are great for some and big rigs are great for others. Neither are wrong or need to be insulted.

 

[Mark Ambler]

Regardless of the volume, for me it's preferable to 'move more air', hence 2x 210s. For your needs two 10s sounds suitable and as already mentioned, you could always add a third 10. If you're playing with a pro PA, the monitors will support your sound, anyway.

 

[ValerieK]

Forget your calculations. You don't need them because they are incorrect.

Which part is wrong?

Pro stage volume is up to 110 dB, according to @agedhorse

Pro stage distance from cabs is up to 20 meters, according to @agedhorse

You need to add 3 dB margin for clipping, according to @agedhorse

You also need to add 6 dB for "masking" - again, according to @agedhorse

Therefore a pro stage rig should be capable of 119 dB at 20 meters. They're not my numbers, they're his.

You lose 26 dB going from 1 meter to 20 meters. Therefore you need 119 + 26 = 145 dB at 1 meter. That's "my calculation" - How is it wrong?

All I did was plug in his numbers to simple formulas. Where are the errors?

 

[agedhorse]

Which part is wrong?

Pro stage volume is up to 110 dB, according to @agedhorse

Pro stage distance from cabs is up to 20 meters, according to @agedhorse

You need to add 3 dB margin for clipping, according to @agedhorse

You also need to add 6 dB for "masking" - again, according to @agedhorse

Therefore a pro stage rig should be capable of 119 dB at 20 meters. They're not my numbers, they're his.

You lose 26 dB going from 1 meter to 20 meters. Therefore you need 119 + 26 = 145 dB at 1 meter. That's "my calculation" - How is it wrong?

All I did was plug in his numbers to simple formulas. Where are the errors?

Stage volume is NOT at 1M, on a stage that big, it would be at between 10 and 20M (that’s anechoic, ie. no boundaries like walls, ceiling, etc. If you add boundaries, the stage volume goes up due to boundary gain which decreases the need for as much power (by a factor of between 2 and 4 typically)

This is exactly why you see multiple cabinets and higher power and high sensitivity in larger format gigs (especially outdoors). It is what it is.

Plugging numbers into formulas is very misleading unless you know what they REALLY mean. That’s why pros are pros.

 

[ShadowGroover]

@ValerieK Many here have offered you excellent, practical, experienced advice. None of it is based on numbers that you seem to be focused on. And, the back-and-forth with agedhorse doesn't seem to be serving anyone well, as you both appear to be at very different career, experience, education, and vocabulary levels. Maybe go back to Jeff Genzler's welcoming post, and then realize that you can likely talk with him directly for the best possible personalized advice. Cheers!

 

[ValerieK]

Stage volume is NOT at 1M, on a stage that big, it would be at between 10 and 20M (that’s anechoic, ie. no boundaries like walls, ceiling, etc. If you add boundaries, the stage volume goes up due to boundary gain which decreases the need for as much power (by a factor of between 2 and 4 typically)

This is exactly why you see multiple cabinets and higher power and high sensitivity in larger format gigs (especially outdoors). It is what it is.

Plugging numbers into formulas is very misleading unless you know what they REALLY mean. That’s why pros are pros.

What volume do I need to be capable of producing and at what distance?

You're the pro. You tell me.

 

[agedhorse]

What volume do I need to be capable of producing and at what distance?

You're the pro. You tell me.

Since I don’t know your specific situation, I can’t answer this question any better than I can predict what tone preferences you might prefer.

I think I suggested earlier that a pair of BA110’s should acceptable for what you attempted to describe as your needs, but since you won’t know your needs until you experience them yourself, this is nothing but an educated guess.

 

[ValerieK]

Since I don’t know your specific situation, I can’t answer this question any better than I can predict what tone preferences you might prefer.

I think I suggested earlier that a pair of BA110’s should acceptable for what you attempted to describe as your needs, but since you won’t know your needs until you experience them yourself, this is nothing but an educated guess.

I didn't ask about a specific situation, I asked about actual pro stages.

I'm trying to dress for the job I want. Why is this so hard? You can't possibly know what a gig requires without first playing it and potentially failing miserably?

 

[agedhorse]

If you are playing metal, you will need more than if you are playing a classical cello suites. Playing outdoors generally takes more than playing indoors.

 

[SteveC]

The variables - trying to plan for a gig you don’t have or may not get - are unrealistic. When you get a gig, comeback and we’ll all be happy to help you pick the perfect rig.

 

[Kenny056]

Go see a band at a venue at which you hope to play. Look at their gear. Easy peazy

 

[ShadowGroover]

Have been thinking of trying a Magellan preamp with a Mesa WD800. Has anyone here tried this combination? How is it? Best through fx loop or front end?

 

[Chuck M]

Have been thinking of trying a Magellan preamp with a Mesa WD800. Has anyone here tried this combination? How is it? Best through fx loop or front end?

Depends on what you want. If you want to mimic the Magellan go into the effects return. You might like the way it sounds going through the WD preamp.

 

[Loring]

Hey where’d you get the T-shirt!?

There’s merch on the Genzler website…

 

[John D Harris]

With the weight restrictions I believe you mentioned (20lb Max) two separate BA10 cabs should work for your expected professional shows. The “professionals “ know that a proper sound system is required and that will carry the venue.
If you’re playing with pros in a small venue with little sound support then they should all be playing at a reasonable volume.
It seems that you’re putting a lot of qualifiers/expectations in your statements ,but you’re also receiving some good real world advise from experienced users of the same setup you mentioned. They all seem to agree that the two BA10-2 cabs with 500 watts should work.

This!

If you, @ValerieK were more interested in listening to the best solutions for your situation given your weight limits, instead of working to manufacture arguments above your understanding and looking for ways to be indigent because of your own misunderstandings, you would be a lot better served.

 

[Loring]

Not a guy, but certainly worthless and toxic. Thanks for the help. Really great forum you people have here. Got any other brilliant insults you'd like to share?

Maybe you should check people’s backgrounds before being dismissive and hostile.

Aged Horse is a respected, knowledgeable, experienced and helpful engineer. Among other things he used to be one of the engineers designing amps with Jeff at Genz Benz and now designs bass amps for Mesa Boogie.

He is also an accomplished sound engineer that has done sound and designed systems for a number of big touring acts.

Now he helps Jeff Genzler design some if the best pedals available for bass players…

In other words he kinda knows his stuff. You must have taken something out of context in one of the replies because all I’ve seen is very useful information if you’d care to pay attention.

He’s very active on these forums and very helpful so please take it down a notch. Take a breath. Re read the posts with a less antagonistic mindset and hopefully learn something.

And yes - for your purposes 2 of the BA10-2’s will do you fine. And when get a gig that requires more - like an outdoor festival or a stadium, you can always request they supply a back line