Genzler Amplification Club

[Mark Ambler]

Just to be clear, the BA-10-2 is a single 10" woofer with an array of 2" high frequency drivers, so I'm looking at a total of "only" 2 10" woofers for the stack.

Mathematically it's louder than I would ever have any interest in being near - and frankly unsafe for anyone to be near for a length of time... and yet, almost nobody here plays with a rig that small. What am I missing?

The single 10" is a great cab, but I returned it due to its limited volume. A 2x10 or 1x12" would be a better fit imo. The single 10" would work well in an acoustic Jazz setting. I have a pair of GR 2x10's due to weight concerns, and one is usually plenty loud enough.

 

[rok51]

I have a pair of the series 1 BA 10-2 cabinets that I use with my Magellan 350. I have used the cabinets singly indoors and outdoors and have been very surprised at how well they worked and how well I could hear them. That was in a more casual setting, but still with three guitars, full drum kit and keys. I also used the pair outside with full drums and two guitars that were using “Deluxe class” amps…I was asked twice to turn down…
They are way more capable than the size or weight might otherwise imply. Now, if the guitars are using 100 watt tube heads through full or half stacks…then I would say they aren’t up to the task . Truthfully, so much depends on your playing situation and your fellow musicians. Are they more concerned with the overall sound of band as a whole, or are they wanting to hear “more me!” I have bigger rigs that I can use, but these little critters pleasantly surprise me every time they get the call.

Plus Jeff is absolutely amazing to deal with…when you look up exemplary customer service and support…you’re likely to find his picture front and center.

Kim

 

[agedhorse]

Mathematically it's louder than I would ever have any interest in being near - and frankly unsafe for anyone to be near for a length of time... and yet, almost nobody here plays with a rig that small. What am I missing?

What are you missing? When you move away from the cabinet, the volume decreases therefore if you need to cover 30 feet you will find that the volume 30 feet away will be considerably lower.

Others almost certainly have a very different set of needs, wants and desires than you do, and their situation is every bit as valid as your are.

 

[ValerieK]

What are you missing? When you move away from the cabinet, the volume decreases therefore if you need to cover 30 feet you will find that the volume 30 feet away will be considerably lower.

Others almost certainly have a very different set of needs, wants and desires than you do, and their situation is every bit as valid as your are.

So how loud does a stage need to be, 150 dB? 140?

I don't know what I am doing, that's why I ask questions. I have never heard of a stage volume that high being desired anywhere outside of a teenager's imagination.

I want to be good enough and have good enough gear to play with people who are actually good, not just my garbage little gigs that nobody cares about. Do real pros really play so loud that it hurts every night? If that's a requirement of the job then I should just quit now.

 

[Nebadon2000]

Just to be clear, the BA-10-2 is a single 10" woofer with an array of 2" high frequency drivers, so I'm looking at a total of "only" 2 10" woofers for the stack.

Mathematically it's louder than I would ever have any interest in being near - and frankly unsafe for anyone to be near for a length of time... and yet, almost nobody here plays with a rig that small. What am I missing?

Yes I misread: but yes it still may be more than enough as you have experienced

You are not missing anything others may have different preferences and needs based on their situation

Just as many get big engine cars to drive to work and grocery store in mostly traffic

 

[agedhorse]

So how loud does a stage need to be, 150 dB? 140?

I don't know what I am doing, that's why I ask questions. I have never heard of a stage volume that high being desired anywhere outside of a teenager's imagination.

I want to be good enough and have good enough gear to play with people who are actually good, not just my garbage little gigs that nobody cares about. Do real pros really play so loud that it hurts every night? If that's a requirement of the job then I should just quit now.

You are back to an absurd exaggeration with those comments.

NOBODY is playing with or suggesting 140-150dB stage volume, and in fact that’s close to impossible to achieve in reality anyway.

My experience is that for amplified music, anywhere from 95dB to 110dB average at the front of the stage (about 30’ from the back line) is a realistic range (for rock music).

If your speaker is 95dB/1W/1M sensitivity, for 95dB at 30’ you would need 100W and for 110dB you would need about 3000W.

Now maybe you can see that as the desired volume increases, multiple speakers are necessary and greater sensitivity is also helpful.

Using a typical 810 cabinet with 103dB/1W/1M sensitivity (more common with louder genres), for 95dB at 30’ you would need ~16W and for 110dB you would need ~500W.

To highlight the ridiculousness of your 140dB comment, using this as the target volume with the 103dB/1W/1M sensitivity speaker results in needing 500 kilowatts… maybe now you understand why you get the reactions that you do.

 

[ValerieK]

You are back to an absurd exaggeration with those comments.

NOBODY is playing with or suggesting 140-150dB stage volume, and in fact that’s close to impossible to achieve in reality anyway.

My experience is that for amplified music, anywhere from 95dB to 110dB average at the front of the stage (about 30’ from the back line) is a realistic range (for rock music).

If your speaker is 95dB/1W/1M sensitivity, for 95dB at 30’ you would need 100W and for 110dB you would need about 3000W.

Now maybe you can see that as the desired volume increases, multiple speakers are necessary and greater sensitivity is also helpful.

Using a typical 810 cabinet with 103dB/1W/1M sensitivity (more common with louder genres), for 95dB at 30’ you would need ~16W and for 110dB you would need ~500W.

To highlight the ridiculousness of your 140dB comment, using this as the target volume with the 103dB/1W/1M sensitivity speaker results in needing 500 kilowatts… maybe now you understand why you get the reactions that you do.

I was sticking with measurements at 1m to eliminate variables, but please continue to treat me like garbage...

Sure, if you put the amp 10 kilometers away then it needs to be powered by a nuclear reactor. An amp on stage can only be so far away before it's going to have so much latency that it's hard to play, no?

By your numbers, a pair of BA-10-2 at 97 dB each and a 500 watt amp should be fine for any reasonable stage at any reasonable volume. Where would I need more than that?

 

[macribas]

@ValerieK let me try to help. I believe you are going at it the wrong way.

First of all, I'm surprised you mentioning decibels as a way to define requirements for your rig. Are you carrying around a decibel meter? Ditch that thing. If these numbers you mention are right, as you mentioned, y'all are probably half deaf anyway. Y'all need to turn down.

Second, cutting through the mix has nothing to do with your sound level output. Sure you got to have some power, but it is not about volume, it's about equalization. Finding the proper EQ is way more important than raising your volume. You can't have a stage too loud, for many reasons.

Third, in this day and age of subwoofers and nice PA speakers, your rig does not have to provide bass for the whole room. Just for yourself. You'll have PA support to be heard across the venue pretty much anywhere.

Fourth, a big rig looks good on stage. I'm betting those around you that play with those are just playing them at moderate volume. Looks can be deceiving.

Hope this helps!

 

[Sid the Kid]

You might never need more than that, especially if your band plays quietly. The 10-2 is a great little cab and it should suit your needs during recovery and beyond. The addition of a second 10-2 or a 12-3 would cover any indoor venue I’ve experienced, the 12-3 would offer more low end authority.

Everyone has a different definition of reasonable, colored by their own lens. There’s nothing unreasonable about having a giant rig, what’s unreasonable and immature is not controlling it with the volume knob. A big rig will get as quiet as you need and far louder than 350w into 2 x10’s ever could. I would rather have it and not need it. If I was respecting weight limitations as you are I would absolutely buy the best micro cabs I could afford and hope to not be drowned out by my band.

I was sticking with measurements at 1m to eliminate variables, but please continue to treat me like garbage...

Sure, if you put the amp 10 kilometers away then it needs to be powered by a nuclear reactor. An amp on stage can only be so far away before it's going to have so much latency that it's hard to play, no?

By your numbers, a pair of BA-10-2 at 97 dB each and a 500 watt amp should be fine for any reasonable stage at any reasonable volume. Where would I need more than that?

 

[Jeff Genzler]

Hey folks, I'm posting this here instead of in a general thread because I'm leaning toward ordering a pair of BA-10-2 cabs. I know that they're not good enough for Metallica at the EnormoDome, but if I'm doing the math right then they should be capable of about 130 dB with a 500W amp... 300 watts handling each at 97 dB sensitivity. Are they loud enough to play with real bands or not? Seems like most folks here would say no. I don't understand.

I can't really have a cabinet over 20 lbs (doctor's orders), so at 19 lbs each these seem like my best bet.

This is a really expensive purchase for me and I need them to last for years, not be outgrown - what else should I be considering? I'm afraid of GR Bass reliability and would prefer to be able to buy from Sweetwater/Musiciansfriend for the 0% financing.

I really like the idea of having better horizontal dispersion plus the slant front cabs actually pointing toward my ears - traditional cabs sound/feel stupid to me, with no definition unless you have the speaker pointed directly at your ears.

Right now I have a heavy 1x12 with a 4 ohm Celestion BN12-300S and that's loud enough for anything I do, but it's too heavy at ~30 lbs and it only sounds good in one narrow beam.

Thank you for considering our cabs for your needs. Getting back to your original inquiry, you don't mention the amp you have, but I think for a normal live band setting, not heavy metal or extreme loud, 2 of the BA-10-2-S2 CABS will cover a medium size stage. With the BA design it is not always qboit the brute for of watts and Dr's. The projection of these cabs is quite different than a traditional woofer/tweeter arrangement. You really need to experience it yourself.
We have many players using this small stack and covering all types of gigs. And these cabs are under 20 lbs and are all plywood construction offering the warmth and durability of real wood cabs, well dampened internally. Some other cabs you mentioned are not made that way.
Let me know if I can help further.
Merry Christmas.

 

[John D Harris]

Hey folks, I'm posting this here instead of in a general thread because I'm leaning toward ordering a pair of BA-10-2 cabs. I know that they're not good enough for Metallica at the EnormoDome, but if I'm doing the math right then they should be capable of about 130 dB with a 500W amp... 300 watts handling each at 97 dB sensitivity. Are they loud enough to play with real bands or not? Seems like most folks here would say no. I don't understand.

I can't really have a cabinet over 20 lbs (doctor's orders), so at 19 lbs each these seem like my best bet.

This is a really expensive purchase for me and I need them to last for years, not be outgrown - what else should I be considering? I'm afraid of GR Bass reliability and would prefer to be able to buy from Sweetwater/Musiciansfriend for the 0% financing.

I really like the idea of having better horizontal dispersion plus the slant front cabs actually pointing toward my ears - traditional cabs sound/feel stupid to me, with no definition unless you have the speaker pointed directly at your ears.

Right now I have a heavy 1x12 with a 4 ohm Celestion BN12-300S and that's loud enough for anything I do, but it's too heavy at ~30 lbs and it only sounds good in one narrow beam.

The way the cabinets are designed they have very good throw and dispersion with very balanced tone.

A good solid 500W amp should be plenty unless you are playing with a super heavy hitting drummer and a couple of mostly deaf, 4x12 stack guitarists!

 

[John D Harris]

The single 10" is a great cab, but I returned it due to its limited volume. A 2x10 or 1x12" would be a better fit imo. The single 10" would work well in an acoustic Jazz setting. I have a pair of GR 2x10's due to weight concerns, and one is usually plenty loud enough.

Were the Genzler BA-10's you had Series I or Series II?

The Series II are more robust with better low end.

They should be in the same ballpark as the GR Bass 210 with a robust 500W (or more) amp.

The GR Bass 210V is 103dB; one BA-10-S2 is 97dB which means 2 cabs would be 103dB (+3dB for twice the cone area and +3dB for going from 8 to 4 Ohm) - at least that is my understanding.

 

[agedhorse]

You can’t eliminate the distance variable, anywhere from 15’ - 30’ is a practical real world distance from an amp to the downstage positions on a small to medium size stage. For a large stage, that distance might be 50/60’. 1M (~3’) is the standard distance for sensitivity specs. but not for anything else.

For YOUR example of 2x 97dB/1W/1M sensitivity cabinets, the sensitivity of the combined pair would be 97dB + 3dB = 100dB at 1W/1M.

Doing the same calculations as above, with a target volume of 95dB (a very mild volume) at 15 feet from the amp, and with 3dB clipping margin, 6 watts would do it.

Understand that with this simplistic calculation, it assumes no competing noise sources to mask your sound. As soon as you start playing with a band, guitars and drums specifically, your target volume may get masked as their volume approaches yours. In my experience, your target volume needs to be about 6dB higher that the masking volume, or 101dB which would require ~25 watts, not 6 watts.

I don’t know many bands that can play to a target volume of 95dB however, but IF you can keep the volume down, it should work fine. Only you will be able to determine this.

This example wouldn’t work for many bands, especially those with louder drums and guitars, not in my experience anyway.

 

[agedhorse]

Were the Genzler BA-10's you had Series I or Series II?

The Series II are more robust with better low end.

They should be in the same ballpark as the GR Bass 210 with a robust 500W (or more) amp.

The GR Bass 210V is 103dB; one BA-10-S2 is 97dB which means 2 cabs would be 103dB (+3dB for twice the cone area and +3dB for going from 8 to 4 Ohm) - at least that is my understanding.

If the sensitivity is stated as 1W/1M then the sensitivity would be 100dB/1W/1M because the 1W reference doesn’t change.

 

[John D Harris]

If the sensitivity is stated as 1W/1M then the sensitivity would be 100dB/1W/1M because the 1W reference doesn’t change.

OK, yeah, I see what you mean.

 

[agedhorse]

For the love of all things rational, can we please use consistent units?

From what you are telling me, in order to play with a real band on a real stage, I need:

110 dB stage volume
+3 dB clipping margin
+6 dB masking volume
= 119 dB at 20 meters

Which is... 145 dB at 1 meter.

Why is it ridiculous when I ask you if you're seriously saying that people need 140-150 dB rigs? You are saying that yourself.

I said absolutely nothing of the sort, you are putting in correct words into my mouth, and your math is dead wrong.

You have gone down this disrespectful path before, please stop it. People are trying to help you, but you are just not getting it (either intentionally or otherwise).

 

[Jens Telemark]

APD

 

[RColie]

Hey folks, I'm posting this here instead of in a general thread because I'm leaning toward ordering a pair of BA-10-2 cabs. I know that they're not good enough for Metallica at the EnormoDome, but if I'm doing the math right then they should be capable of about 130 dB with a 500W amp... 300 watts handling each at 97 dB sensitivity. Are they loud enough to play with real bands or not? Seems like most folks here would say no. I don't understand.

I can't really have a cabinet over 20 lbs (doctor's orders), so at 19 lbs each these seem like my best bet.

This is a really expensive purchase for me and I need them to last for years, not be outgrown - what else should I be considering? I'm afraid of GR Bass reliability and would prefer to be able to buy from Sweetwater/Musiciansfriend for the 0% financing.

I really like the idea of having better horizontal dispersion plus the slant front cabs actually pointing toward my ears - traditional cabs sound/feel stupid to me, with no definition unless you have the speaker pointed directly at your ears.

Right now I have a heavy 1x12 with a 4 ohm Celestion BN12-300S and that's loud enough for anything I do, but it's too heavy at ~30 lbs and it only sounds good in one narrow beam.

I have extensive experience with the MG350 into a pair of BA10-2 series 1. I also have some experience with the same series 2 setup. And, I have experience with several high quality 112s. IME, if your 112 covers your needs, the Genzler setup will as well, and probably better. Please help keep this thread friendly and respectful.

 

[ValerieK]

I have extensive experience with the MG350 into a pair of BA10-2 series 1. I also have some experience with the same series 2 setup. And, I have experience with several high quality 112s. IME, if your 112 covers your needs, the Genzler setup will as well, and probably better. Please help keep this thread friendly and respectful.

I don't know how to be any more clear.

I don't "need" an amp at all for the tiny little gigs I have now. I use IEMs and run direct to whatever whimpy PA is available - usually my own little Evolve 30M. I'm not asking about these gigs, I don't need anything new for them. Our stage volume is only 80-90 dB and our venues specifically require/request that we keep it that low. I'm not asking for help with these gigs. I don't need help with my current gigs.

What I'm asking for is help understanding what happens at real professional gigs. I'm not yet good enough to play at a real venue or hire a sound company. I have no experience in that world. I have never had a real sound check or real PA or real sound tech helping - I have always had to figure it out myself, on stage, while performing. The situations that you guys describe here are completely foreign to me.

I want to be able to say "Yes" in the unlikely event that someone ever wants to hire me to play with a real band on a real stage tonight - and I want to show up prepared and sounding good, not scrambling to buy and dial in all new gear.

Can I do that with a pair of series 2 BA-10-2 cabs and a ~500 W amp or not? If not, how much volume capability at what distance do I need?

(FWIW, if I were a star and could dictate my own terms I would never be exposed to stage volumes over 85 dB or so. I hate acoustic drums and loud horn sections... but work is work and I am not a star, so I am stuck playing with loud people on loud stages if I want to play more and maybe even be able to afford health insurance at some point - I don't actually want to buy any of this stuff, it's simply a means to an end for me)

 

[staccatogrowl]

For small stage venues without PA support, 2 BA-10-2 cabs with a Genzler Magellan 800 amp would be great. For medium stage venues without PA support, the same rig could also work, depending on band configuration, but could also be supplemented with a 3rd BA-10-2 cabinet if needed.

Genzler amps and cabinets go hand-in-hand, providing a very enjoyable experience for player, band mates, and listeners. And, simply by having such a setup in a practice room, it provides inspiration and enjoyment while waiting for that next gig opportunity. Then, if that opportunity has PA support, your setup can still provide stage monitoring, with capability of sending a great DI signal to FOH.

No need to overthink this. A practical way to solve the puzzle is to assemble a quality rig, testing the results according to your tastes, opportunity, and need, adjusting as circumstances dictate. Best in the quest : )