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Double Bass German bow hold question ...

S

Simon Lévesque

Nov 13, 2014
15
3
51
#1
Hi !

What is the main difference between the " classic " and the Streicher bow hold in terms of weight application...I feel like i've got a much better sound with the classic bow hold (weight) but a much better control with the wrist with the Streicher hold. The " classic " provides a better legato stroke (imo) but i struggle to have a good short and fast détaché it's like the bow wants to jump off my hand...and ...no i can't have any help from a teacher because they all play french. Is it possible to have the same wrist feeling with both holds...?
 
#2
Simon Lévesque said:
Hi !

What is the main difference between the " classic " and the Streicher bow hold in terms of weight application...I feel like i've got a much better sound with the classic bow hold (weight) but a much better control with the wrist with the Streicher hold. The " classic " provides a better legato stroke (imo) but i struggle to have a good short and fast détaché it's like the bow wants to jump off my hand...and ...no i can't have any help from a teacher because they all play french. Is it possible to have the same wrist feeling with both holds...?
Click to expand...

Hm. I really don't know the difference between these two, but I'm guessing they are small. Could you explain it a bit so I know what you're talking about?

Probably someone with more knowledge will write soon, but I'll try to help how I can.

Imo, if the bow holding feels natural and relaxed, you should be able to play legato and detache with adjusting some other parts of your arm. For example, when playing fast detache, the forearm is very engaged, much like you are tapping a basketball, and the wrist is more "fixed" as opposed to legato, where you have probably noticed the wrist is much more relaxed. In spiccato for example, you will use a mix of fast detache and secco(staccato): both using the fingers to control the bow bouncing, and the forearm keeping the bow bouncing. Also don't forget the shoulder which has most of your arm weight- usually when my bow starts doing strange things, it's because my shoulder is stiff instead of relaxed into the string.

If the bow wants to jump off your hand, well maybe it's too relaxed? try to hold the bow as if you are holding a tennis ball. Don't put pressure on your fingers or wrist, but make sure that you can control the movement of the bow.

There's one exercise for the bow grip that u can do, I can post it here if u want to try?
 
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#3
My wrist is more relax when i play with my index finger on the stick but my sound is " beefier" when i use my thumb . The weight distribution seems to be easier.

Well...one way to solve that.... practice, practice and practice practice !

Thanks.
 
#4
AngieBass said:
Hm. I really don't know the difference between these two, but I'm guessing they are small. Could you explain it a bit so I know what you're talking about?

Probably someone with more knowledge will write soon, but I'll try to help how I can.

Imo, if the bow holding feels natural and relaxed, you should be able to play legato and detache with adjusting some other parts of your arm. For example, when playing fast detache, the forearm is very engaged, much like you are tapping a basketball, and the wrist is more "fixed" as opposed to legato, where you have probably noticed the wrist is much more relaxed. In spiccato for example, you will use a mix of fast detache and secco(staccato): both using the fingers to control the bow bouncing, and the forearm keeping the bow bouncing. Also don't forget the shoulder which has most of your arm weight- usually when my bow starts doing strange things, it's because my shoulder is stiff instead of relaxed into the string.

If the bow wants to jump off your hand, well maybe it's too relaxed? try to hold the bow as if you are holding a tennis ball. Don't put pressure on your fingers or wrist, but make sure that you can control the movement of the bow.

There's one exercise for the bow grip that u can do, I can post it here if u want to try?
Click to expand...
I think my bow arm is the issue more than the bow hold...
 
#5
Simon, maybe check out the gamba thread I started a few days ago. I think we are struggling with the same thing.

The Streicher hold has the thumb straight and the index finger sort of trapped beneath it. Gajdos uses a similar one. For me this kind of simulates the viola da gamba hold. Actually I find this hold both extremely nice for legato playing and also very powerful as you are really bringing weight down into the string. But yeah, not so great for bouncing the bow.

CA1F1F60-CFFC-4C00-BCC7-CC44CF185AAA.jpeg F282BD59-DF0A-430D-B739-0FC5679765CF.jpeg

Then you get the Simandl school with the thumb more on top of the stick. Maybe the index is a bit offset to the top of the stick. Much better for off the string stuff, but legato is a little tougher because the wrist may tighten up.

D6817391-7AD1-4754-B51A-1DFA1AF779BC.jpeg

Quarrington puts a fairly substantial amount of index on top of the stick. Maybe a hybrid between the two?

42222175-C876-4151-A4FB-1A69B6BB157A.jpeg


Posta doesn’t seem to have either directly on top of the stick.

5059F449-CFF5-4036-88A8-FAD8CEA60D26.jpeg

What seems to have helped me is basically just focusing on the balance point that the middle finger creates.

Maybe try practicing using just the thumb and middle finger (mine is pretty curved). There’s a lot of flow and wiggle there if you just let the fingers cradle the bow.
 
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#6
Nice post !

I'm gonna stick with the index on top of the stick...my hand take that shape naturally and i like the "no tension wrist"

But i think there is more about the bow arm than the bow hold...the arm act the same either German or French so...
 
#11
As to your question about the weight application, I think it’s the same for Streicher or Simandl holds. You have to rotate your forearm a bit as you apply the weight.

When you play on the string your arm will probably be more in front of the bass, when you play off the string you come back a little.

In my experience at least.

For what it’s worth my teacher switches between the two holds depending on what he’s playing. He’s had about thirty years in a major opera company so he’s a dependable source.
 
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#14
I must admit I do wonder, sometimes, especially when looking at the multitude of bow holds we can all see on YouTube, whether there ought to be more time spent on what works for each individual rather than what it "should" be..Certainly have something to aim at, no question, but modify it so that it gives the best sound you can allow for, given all else (experience, type of bow, strings etc.)
Regards to all
 
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#15
Andy Mopley said:
I must admit I do wonder, sometimes, especially when looking at the multitude of bow holds we can all see on YouTube, whether there ought to be more time spent on what works for each individual rather than what it "should" be..Certainly have something to aim at, no question, but modify it so that it gives the best sound you can allow for, given all else (experience, type of bow, strings etc.)
Regards to all
Click to expand...

I generally agree - if it works, produces a good sound, and it doesn't hurt, then do it! Assuming what you as a teacher do will work without any modification for your students is an idea from the industrial revolution, and needs to be left behind.
 
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#16
Andy Mopley said:
I must admit I do wonder, sometimes, especially when looking at the multitude of bow holds we can all see on YouTube, whether there ought to be more time spent on what works for each individual rather than what it "should" be..Certainly have something to aim at, no question, but modify it so that it gives the best sound you can allow for, given all else (experience, type of bow, strings etc.)
Regards to all
Click to expand...
YES! The grips/holds you see in methods and by your teacher and on YouTube should be a starting point, but every hand is shaped differently, every frog (for German this is so important) is a different size (and if you did not know this, please do ask the next time you are in a shop with many types of German bows - once I realized there are smaller frogs, that fit my palm better, I had no more trouble with spiccato). Just saying that I agree that you need to understand the principles of the way the hair "springs" or connects to the string, the springiness of the stick, and the multiple moving joints in the bow arm/hand that all influence what you grip and your sound will be.
 
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