• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Get off my LAWN! "Grumpy Old Farts"

Status
Not open for further replies.
#6,584
Al Kraft said:
I always like to think the best of our Service members and totally buy the theory that the pilot was trying to secure a safe terminal flight path for the aircraft before punching out. In that case, the decision that the back-seater would go first and the pilot would stay and make final corrections up to the point before being out of the safe ejection envelope makes sense. No pilot wants to be the person who safely ejected while watching their aircraft crash into folks on the ground. Even though they were still feet wet, I'm guessing the aircraft had the potential to fly far enough to strike something ashore or perhaps a ship.

Those A-4's were a tight fit if you were even close to 6 feet tall. Every Scooter driver I knew said their biggest concern with that aircraft was having to face the trade-off between living and losing kneecaps if they needed to punch out.

Actually, with only a short time in the drink, there is lot of useful forensic information (even related to fire damage and likely sequence of events) that can be extracted from the wreckage. Accident reconstruction experts do some remarkable things with what the average person would see as a random pile of junk.

As for a flame out on approach, especially touch and goes, the typical culprits (for that time frame) would be rapid throttle excursions inducing compressor stalls, FOD (like bird/bat ingestion) or internal engine condition (build up on compressor blades or IGVs) reducing stall margin leading to a completely unanticipated compressor stall, fuel starvation, or exhausted fuel supply. In the early jet engine days when you had manual/mechanical FCUs there was a much higher incidence of problems like this with rapid throttle movements. Once we moved to FADECs the incidence of compressor stalls and flame outs were greatly reduced, particularly from pilot induced throttle movements.
Click to expand...

I sincerely appreciate your insight, Al. Perhaps the good LT was unsung hero and was able to reach the switch himself. The fact that it crashed into any part of the bay indicates that it could have easily hit shore if he had punched out at anytime before impact.

I also really admire our hero's. The heroism begins with signing a contract, especially during wartime. While the CDR was obviously poopie canned to vC-5, I had no reason to disrespect the man before the fact. If you heard his testimony after the fact, I think you would be very convinced that he knew about the switch position pre-flight. However that does not rule out the possibility that he was inflating a sea story. Of course a sea story might not against the law, but with a fallen shipmate involved... despicable and unbecoming of an officer.

As far as the switch position goes regarding qualifications, we had one backseat rider, the flight surgeon. The SOP, and even on the checklist for all the inspections, included Doc Wack (the quack), absolutely set to either seat ejects both. Now, Doc Wack was awesome. He could cure any curable VD and his cap said "quack" on the back :D

Is there any way to pursue the crash report short of a FOIA request? I think it might rest my mind.

On the LTJG ejection, he was over 6 ft tall, and other pilots said he had to sign a height waiver for A-4's... Also, interesting fact, my first DO was also my last DO. Great guy. we used to off-road our Jeeps together. I've been in contact with wife. He's a civilian doing contract NAVAIR.
 
#6,586
BadExample said:
Is there any way to pursue the crash report short of a FOIA request? I think it might rest my mind.
Click to expand...
For a mishap investigation in this time frame I would start here:
Naval Safety Center
Attn: FOIA Service Center
375 A Street
Norfolk, VA 23511-4399
Telephone: (757) 444-3520 ext. 6055

Here is the link to the Safety Center's website: Link Removed. I was able to access it without using my CAC.

If they release the report it will likely have redacted areas (e.g. names of people involved, medical information, etc.). Of course since you were there I suspect you can easily figure out who is who. If the investigators had discovered something "very questionable", I would think a JAGMAN investigation would have followed. Given that the Commander was still on active duty and in flight status after the incident, I suspect no evidence of any type suggesting foul play or negligence/actions contributing to the loss of aircraft and life was found.

The seats in that A-4 were probably the Douglas ESCAPAC which IIRC were Zero-Zero seats. There's every reason to believe to the pilots selected the safest possible egress strategy given level of control the PIC had (back seat first, aircraft flight corrections to ensure safety of ground personnel and safe ejection envelope, then front seater goes). I have no idea what the NATOPS procedures were for their situation, but unless you have confirmed fire or something equally urgent and fatal, it's not unusual for the aircrew to work the problem up to a point where recovery is not possible but you're still above minimum safe ejection conditions.

Try the Safety Center and see if you can get a copy of investigation. Hopefully it will put your mind at ease. While I didn't know the people involved, at face value there just doesn't appear to a be anything here that screams "more to the story". FWIW, I've heard tales of pilots who were unwilling to fly in a mode where "that other guy" could punch them out. After the canopy closes the switch gets put in the "you go if you want to, I'll decide for myself" position. In this scenario the pilot would have normally told the back seater this and it may be why the Commander told the pilot to eject. This seems even more likely to me if the senior guy was looked at a bit suspiciously by his fellow (albeit junior) aviators. OBTW, when you have individually initiated vice automatically sequenced ejections, it is typical for the back seater to announce ejection and go first - for obvious reasons.
 
#6,590
Big thanks Al! I think you've already eased my mind. I'm still curious, so I'm looking into FOIA. I've shifted my mindset to perhaps the LT flipped the switch after flame out with the intention of saving lives and perhaps the A-4.
Al Kraft said:
The seats in that A-4 were probably the Douglas ESCAPAC which IIRC were Zero-Zero seats.
Click to expand...
Yes, those were zero-zero. And the both seats punch both sequence is back first, then front. As being initially developed as a trainer, I don't know why there's no every man for himself option. Perhaps a front ejection is just to dangerous in a TA-4J with a pilot in back. I don't think I'd want that rocket going off in my face. At least they didn't have to go through the canopy like the retrofit zero-zero Trojans the Philippines AF had. If the A-4E's had footy straps, the guy who got he knee caps relocated and dislocated knees probably would have been way better off, and might not have had the grim reaper so close to him.
 
#6,591
BadExample said:
Big thanks Al! I think you've already eased my mind. I'm still curious, so I'm looking into FOIA. I've shifted my mindset to perhaps the LT flipped the switch after flame out with the intention of saving lives and perhaps the A-4.
Click to expand...
To me, with two experienced pilots in the aircraft that is a very logical conclusion, and as I said, not unheard of for aircrew to have strong preferences about that switch position (especially in an in-flight emergency) despite squadron protocols. If they had waited and executed a single commanded, automatically sequenced dual ejection, given what was envisioned to secure a safe flight path, it might have still taken too long to get the pilot out safely anyway.

They probably figured that in the worst case, the backseat would go early and as long as the aircraft was still flying and not falling or tumbling, with zero-zero seats there would be time for some last attempts to save the bird and/or people potentially in the flight path before the pilot punched out.

IME no one ever plans to die or to be a hero, they just step up and do what they're trained to, plus a little bit more in most cases. It's the story we end up telling afterwards to describe that day that tends to create legends out of folks whose accounting of the events usually include phases phrases like "never been more scared in my life" and "it all happened so quick I didn't have time to think, I just acted".

With only the current facts at hand, I believe your LT was a genuine hero who never planned to die and the CDR who survived was simply following their plan. However, it's tough to sound brave or noble and talk about your great plan when you're the one who made it home and the other guy didn't. I have a number of colleagues and friends who are/were test pilots. Those who made it out of a failed flight when other aircrew was either permanently injured or killed have a tough time with what I would call survivor's guilt. Everyone handles it differently and rank doesn't help a bit in dealing with it or determining how it will affect someone.

Please let me know how the FOIA request turns out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BadExample and agedhorse
#6,592
I haven’t enountered any adhesive that wouldn’t soften and de-bond with enough heat. A heat gun can raise the temperature enough to soften PVA wood glues, such as Titebond, which are used in some instrument construction.

Even if it doesn’t de-bond and release, it can weaken a joint which can cause problems with time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alaskaleftybass and BadExample
#6,593
beans-on-toast said:
I haven’t enountered any adhesive that wouldn’t soften and de-bond with enough heat. A heat gun can raise the temperature enough to soften PVA wood glues, such as Titebond, which are used in some instrument construction.

Even if it doesn’t de-bond and release, it can weaken a joint which can cause problems with time.
Click to expand...

Heat can really screw up some epoxy adhesives. Once you have any de-bonding issues, the body is pretty much worthless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alaskaleftybass, BadExample and beans-on-toast
#6,594
Al Kraft said:
To me, with two experienced pilots in the aircraft that is a very logical conclusion, and as I said, not unheard of for aircrew to have strong preferences about that switch position (especially in an in-flight emergency) despite squadron protocols. If they had waited and executed a single commanded, automatically sequenced dual ejection, given what was envisioned to secure a safe flight path, it might have still taken too long to get the pilot out safely anyway.

They probably figured that in the worst case, the backseat would go early and as long as the aircraft was still flying and not falling or tumbling, with zero-zero seats there would be time for some last attempts to save the bird and/or people potentially in the flight path before the pilot punched out.

IME no one ever plans to die or to be a hero, they just step up and do what they're trained to, plus a little bit more in most cases. It's the story we end up telling afterwards to describe that day that tends to create legends out of folks whose accounting of the events usually include phases phrases like "never been more scared in my life" and "it all happened so quick I didn't have time to think, I just acted".

With only the current facts at hand, I believe your LT was a genuine hero who never planned to die and the CDR who survived was simply following their plan. However, it's tough to sound brave or noble and talk about your great plan when you're the one who made it home and the other guy didn't. I have a number of colleagues and friends who are/were test pilots. Those who made it out of a failed flight when other aircrew was either permanently injured or killed have a tough time with what I would call survivor's guilt. Everyone handles it differently and rank doesn't help a bit in dealing with it or determining how it will affect someone.

Please let me know how the FOIA request turns out.
Click to expand...
I can't remember what the glide ratio is for either the A-4E or TA-4J, searched for it, never found it, but found some amazing stories to read.

Hours after starting this reply, I continue... wife attack!

I've also set aside any negative feelings towards the CDR. That was probably the hardest speech he had endured in his life. I'll bet he is haunted by the fact that the recovery of the fallen bird was near Grade Island, just at the mouth of the bay. I have no doubt there was justified fear of an unmanned A-4 reaching the overpopulated Olonogapo City, or as you indicated the base or her ships at bay, and the LT may have nosed down last minute before attempting to eject. In fact, a few negative G's could explain inability to eject.

subicbay.png


If they had a do-over, knowing the outcome of what they did, I'll bet they would have just hung a left and punched out with the programmed sequence, sending the bird into the 8000+ ft China Sea trench. They probably thought a relight would be easily accomplished. As a fix-it-man, that would be my call.

subicbay2.png


To lighten it up (maybe), the lava flow straight north of Olonagpo (the white thing) was where I lived up to 1985. I was in hog heaven, there. A beautiful view of the mountains across the rice patties, and about a 1/2 mile ride to get my dirt bike on the intertwining and never ending caribou trials in the mountains. The ride was about 1/4 mile of gravel road, cross a crick (sic), then another 1/4 mile or so across a dried (unirrigated) rice patty that was used as a road to retrieve mango's. Hop, hop, hop, hop across the dried mud dividers. That was Mangajon, Castelleajos, named for the abundance of mango trees. I hit the trails most days before working night shift.

subictrails.png


AW (after wife) I moved about halfway between Subic and Olongapo. I still ventured on the old trails, and many others, but I often hit a trial that at that time started at National Highway, alongside the bay. Now would start right by the last "o" in Barreo Baretto.

subictrails2.png


It's funny that I would end up at a sort of a fence, before the 800 ft drop down to the copper mine, which appeared lifeless. That would be about 1600 ft, then the mine about 800ft I believe this would be the bottom right of the following image. I would be at a half tank of gas and had to go back at this point. Had we google earth in the 80's, I would have known there was a town about 2 miles away with gas, food and likely beer.

subic-mine.png


The trial is mostly gone now, from disuse. It was probably active until the town sprouted up, many years before I rode it. I was once a truck road, but there were huge boulders on much of it, making it inaccessible to even a large truck with 4WD, or even a 6x6 (common there). Being in my 20's, I was dumb enough and perfectly happy to run this trial along. I met some interesting people on the trial. A band of Negritos with bolos, blow darts and fat hand rolled cigarettes (I guess it was tobacco). I was checking my gas, felt like I was being watched, looked up and there they were, with poopie eating grins. Without hesitation, I gave them my cigarettes and they were happy. We had absolutely no common language, not even Tagalog/Filipino. They did not seem interested in Jonny-soup once they had some good US smokes. I used to stop by a fellows nipa hut almost back to the highway, a few miles out. He owned a bolo, one pot, one plate and one spoon. I was dehydrated when we met and he watered me. I took pics of him and his family and later returned some prints. Stopped by every ride thereafter with candy for the kids or something small to me but huge to them to improve their life... a towel, a few plates, etc. It was fun!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stumbo and Al Kraft
#6,595
agedhorse said:
Heat can really screw up some epoxy adhesives. Once you have any de-bonding issues, the body is pretty much worthless.
Click to expand...

Even if the glue or epoxy is not softened or damaged by heat, the difference in temp co between those materials must be huge. Not to metion the differing mass. I'd expect even a high temperature adhesive to fail the heating/cooling cycle unless it is a pliable after cured adhesive.
 
#6,599
BassmanPaul said:
Are you OK Will? You don’t seem to be your usual perky self today. :)
Click to expand...
Hi @BassmanPaul . Thank you. I come here to the GOF's for camaraderie and a bit of humor. We also share worries and hope to a degree. A new member from Austrailia decided to start calling me a dog and a boy, with two offensive posts. Then badexample joined in with him on the chiming. I've had a bit on my mind, maybe I'm grumpy. My wife's heart is doing atrial fibrillation and she has to take medicine for it and they want her to take a medication, that if she takes it, if she gets injured she could bleed to death. She's not taking it so I'm worried for her. She's my lifelong treasure, my jewel. I'm incomplete without her. But I stand by her decision. We're scheduling to see a cardiologist to see how serious the afib is. I guess the doctors can stop the heart and restart it to try and get the heart beating properly again. They say it's routine but it scares the heck out of me that they would stop her heart for a second.

So maybe the problem is me today. Yes, I'm not as forgiving and I apologize ot everyone. Thanks for asking Paul, you are a good man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stumbo and BadExample
#6,600
alaskaleftybass said:
Hi @BassmanPaul . Thank you. I come here to the GOF's for camaraderie and a bit of humor. We also share worries and hope to a degree. A new member from Austrailia decided to start calling me a dog and a boy, with two offensive posts. Then badexample joined in with him on the chiming. I've had a bit on my mind, maybe I'm grumpy. My wife's heart is doing atrial fibrillation and she has to take medicine for it and they want her to take a medication, that if she takes it, if she gets injured she could bleed to death. She's not taking it so I'm worried for her. She's my lifelong treasure, my jewel. I'm incomplete without her. But I stand by her decision. We're scheduling to see a cardiologist to see how serious the afib is. I guess the doctors can stop the heart and restart it to try and get the heart beating properly again. They say it's routine but it scares the heck out of me that they would stop her heart for a second.

So maybe the problem is me today. Yes, I'm not as forgiving and I apologize ot everyone. Thanks for asking Paul, you are a good man.
Click to expand...

Sorry brotha ALB. I thought you were joking around. I'll redact my inappropriate reply now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alaskaleftybass
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back