Get off my LAWN! "Grumpy Old Farts"

[BadExample]

According to some old manuals I dug out for the early A-4's, the max glide at 5000 Feet Altitude is around 7 Nautical Miles, at 10,000 Feet altitude it's around 15 Nautical Miles. This would be at optimal glide speed for the given altitude, clean aircraft (slick, gear and flaps up), no wind, and wind-milling engine. Once you blow the canopy I'd say you have just dirtied up the bird aerodynamically and could probably expect those numbers to drop with the resulting L/D change. I think the TA-4's and later model A-4's were in a similar ballpark.

That sounds to me like they had seconds to make decisions. They must have deployed the RAT as well for power. From what I recall, the CDR said the LT wanted to make a 2nd attempt to windmill the engine after the first try failed. That second attempt may have taken him all the way down to the water.

 

[Al Kraft]

That sounds to me like they had seconds to make decisions. They must have deployed the RAT as well for power. From what I recall, the CDR said the LT wanted to make a 2nd attempt to windmill the engine after the first try failed. That second attempt may have taken him all the way down to the water.

Quite likely. In terms of why he might have tried, relight attempts were usually much more effective and took less time at lower altitudes. My guess is that they were probably somewhere between 160 and 190 knots IAS if they had just entered the pattern, probably between 125 and 160 Knots IAS if they were on final - that's all rough guesses and weight and configuration dependent.

The apparent speed brake deployment I noticed in one of the crash pictures seems odd as deploying speed brakes is flagged as risky for the real (not simulated) situation he was in. On the other hand those parts may have pulled away from the aircraft on impact (the EI on the brakes/related structure along with the cockpit speed brake control position should tell that story). It's possible he may have felt the risk was worth it to to slow his descent.

FWIW, there was also a "simulated engine out" landing procedure you could use for practice that involved using the speed brakes and a specific throttle setting (and possibly some other control settings, but I specifically recall those two). Is it possible they were practicing for an emergency event which actually happened during the exercise?? Hey, those were the days before we had easy Fleet/deployed access to realistic simulators to practice emergency procedures like we do today. All these possibilities are what make accident investigations so complex.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Quite likely. In terms of why he might have tried, relight attempts were usually much more effective and took less time at lower altitudes. My guess is that they were probably somewhere between 160 and 190 knots IAS if they had just entered the pattern, probably between 125 and 160 Knots IAS if they were on final - that's all rough guesses and weight and configuration dependent.

The apparent speed brake deployment I noticed in one of the crash pictures seems odd as deploying speed brakes is flagged as risky for the real (not simulated) situation he was in. On the other hand those parts may have pulled away from the aircraft on impact (the EI on the brakes/related structure along with the cockpit speed brake control position should tell that story). It's possible he may have felt the risk was worth it to to slow his descent.

FWIW, there was also a "simulated engine out" landing procedure you could use for practice that involved using the speed brakes and a specific throttle setting (and possibly some other control settings, but I specifically recall those two). Is it possible they were practicing for an emergency event which actually happened during the exercise?? Hey, those were the days before we had easy Fleet/deployed access to realistic simulators to practice emergency procedures like we do today. All these possibilities are what make accident investigations so complex.

I've never been any kind of anything around our fantastic fighters, but like a lot here, I'm a bigtime fan of our airpower. I watch a lot of documentaries and videos online. I don't know especially a lot the technical stuff you and Bad are talking about but I've seen some pretty hairy flameouts coming off aircraft carriers.

One video I saw a Russian pilot eject from a burning plane and after landing got up and casually started lighting up a cigarette. Pilots! Gotta have nerves of steel I guess....

 

[ric426]

Aww shucks, you guys got me all teary eyed now. I agree that this thread has turned into one of the few places where I can share things that I wouldn't tell other people 'cuz you guys are going or have gone through a lot of the same stuff.

Best wishes for speedy and complete recoveries to your wives. I know too well what it feels like when something is wrong with them. It turns your whole world inside out. I'm glad they had treatable problems, even if it involved stress and pain. It's even worse when they have a serious problem and the docs say there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Aww shucks, you guys got me all teary eyed now. I agree that this thread has turned into one of the few places where I can share things that I wouldn't tell other people 'cuz you guys are going or have gone through a lot of the same stuff.

Best wishes for speedy and complete recoveries to your wives. I know too well what it feels like when something is wrong with them. It turns your whole world inside out. I'm glad they had treatable problems, even if it involved stress and pain. It's even worse when they have a serious problem and the docs say there's nothing they can do about it.

Thanks @ric426

Hard to imagine this whole dialog opened up because I was upset and misunderstood a poster-- then spilled my guts, and well we all shared. I'm very thankful for the GOF's and we will all get through this. Your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated. Wondering how @Passinwind is doing.....?

 

[Al Kraft]

I've seen some pretty hairy flameouts coming off aircraft carriers.

While there are occasionally some pretty spectacular flame-outs, I suspect that most of what you've seen are aircraft launching in afterburner (or reheat for our UK friends). I recall my first night aboard an aircraft carrier as a young engineer and getting watch night flight operations. Words fail me, but if you take unbelievably spectacular with absolutely frightening and add in total amazement, it would come close to describing the experience.

It's an honor and privilege to have been given the opportunity to contribute to the success of Navy and Marine Corps aviation over the last 40 years. Our Service men and women are impressive folks whose dedication and personal sacrifice are most deserving of our respect and gratitude. They also deserve the best equipment we can give them to do their jobs, fight, win, and return home safely - ensuring our forces have that superior technical edge has been what my entire professional life is all about.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

While there are occasionally some pretty spectacular flame-outs, I suspect that most of what you've seen are aircraft launching in afterburner (or reheat for our UK friends). I recall my first night aboard an aircraft carrier as a young engineer and getting watch night flight operations. Words fail me, but if you take unbelievably spectacular with absolutely frightening and add in total amazement, it would come close to describing the experience.

It's an honor and privilege to have been given the opportunity to contribute to the success of Navy and Marine Corps aviation over the last 40 years. Our Service men and women are impressive folks whose dedication and personal sacrifice are most deserving of our respect and gratitude. They also deserve the best equipment we can give them to do their jobs, fight, win, and return home safely - ensuring our forces have that superior technical edge has been what my entire professional life is all about.

You are rightfully proud. Thank you for your service to our country. My military years are some of the fondest and happiest memories of my life. Wish I had stayed in the full 20. But it was still a wonderful experience.

 

[Stumbo]

I had to, my install/service business model was no longer working as customers began to take advantage of my good nature by demanding (in ugly ways) that I was "obligated" to repair the equipment and installations of my competitors. Under warranty even.

Been there, done that.

"Good nature", IME, I found detrimental to my business.

Setting customer expectations and documenting them with a contract up front helped me work through many situations where the customer didn't want to pay for extras.

"I'll be happy to give you you a quote" is one if my favorite sayings.

For my sanity, I try to stay calm and try not to take things too personally.

Setting boundaries help me in business and my personal relationships.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Been there, done that.

"Good nature", IME, I found detrimental to my business.

Setting customer expectations and documenting them with a contract up front helped me work through many situations where the customer didn't want to pay for extras.

"I'll be happy to give you you a quote" is one if my favorite sayings.

For my sanity, I try toStay calm and try not to take things personally.

Had a similar experience in the late 90's when I was working at Radio Shack and I built custom computers out of parts in the store. At first I would put together the items then price them out to the customer. When it was done of course the customer would complain about the price. The owner of the store had me make a sign of everything I did, repaired, reformatted reinstalled, parts, etc. When I would get a question, I would refer them to the sign. As the owner said, if you have your prices posted they can't argue with your posted sign.

Also on a similar note, it's crazy how people perceive computer work. I'm doing less of it all the time due to poor "good nature" of customers. If you do an install of Windows and all their programs, make sure their AV is working, for $100 they cry bloody murder. But if they take their car to a mechanic and he says $500 they don't bat an eyebrow. Probably similar in the equipment repair industry. Sheesh...

 

[spankdaplank]

So on a different note, I am super excited here in the Philippines. Tomorrow we are having a couple of guys over for dinner. Specifically the guys who piloted the ROV that found the US Navy ship, Indianapolis, of WWII fame. Found in 16,000 feet of water in the Philippine Sea back in August. The research vessel Petrel is in port here waiting to explore the casualties of the Battle of the Surigao Strait. That battle was the last fleet sized naval battle that will probably ever be fought.
I can't wait to hear the stories these guys have. The project is financed by Paul Allen of Microsoft fame (who is also a pretty fine guitarist).
I will update after the dinner.

 

[BadExample]

So on a different note, I am super excited here in the Philippines. Tomorrow we are having a couple of guys over for dinner. Specifically the guys who piloted the ROV that found the US Navy ship, Indianapolis, of WWII fame. Found in 16,000 feet of water in the Philippine Sea back in August. The research vessel Petrel is in port here waiting to explore the casualties of the Battle of the Surigao Strait. That battle was the last fleet sized naval battle that will probsbly ever be fought.
I can't wait to hear the stories these guys have. The project is financed by Paul Allen of Microsoft fame (who is also a pretty fine guitarist).
I will update after the dinner.

Very cool Brian! Maybe they'll offer a ride.

How is your ear doing these days? I hope it's all cleared up and working better.

 

[Al Kraft]

Had a similar experience in the late 90's when I was working at Radio Shack and I built custom computers out of parts in the store. At first I would put together the items then price them out to the customer. When it was done of course the customer would complain about the price. The owner of the store had me make a sign of everything I did, repaired, reformatted reinstalled, parts, etc. When I would get a question, I would refer them to the sign. As the owner said, if you have your prices posted they can't argue with your posted sign.

Also on a similar note, it's crazy how people perceive computer work. I'm doing less of it all the time due to poor "good nature" of customers. If you do an install of Windows and all their programs, make sure their AV is working, for $100 they cry bloody murder. But if they take their car to a mechanic and he says $500 they don't bat an eyebrow. Probably similar in the equipment repair industry. Sheesh...

I honestly don't get it when people come in with a problem they can't solve, prices/estimates (based on the work envisioned before the job starts) are known up front, the problem gets solved, and then all of sudden it's like they are being presented with tax bill. I for one am grateful to be able to have an expert available to help me and most certainly expect to pay a price that reflects the investment that person had to make to be capable of giving me top quality service. IMO the internet is unfortunately creating a mentality/cultural expectation that everything is free, or should be...so I don't see this problem getting better any time soon.

 

[BadExample]

I absolutely won't touch anyone's home computer junk. I hate working on computer repairs, software or hardware. What's worse, do some work for about 10 people, free or for money, and you end up with a herd of about 10 zombies stalking you for free work or advice.

I am contracturally required to disclose and request any side buisness I do, so that's an easy way to say no.

If I needed more money I would only do business networks and include a year of support in the quote. Also a very detailed SLA for what the contract covers and response times. That takes way more effort than I'm willing to put forth. And then theres all the unpaid efforts for drumming up buisness, taxes, etc.

 

[Al Kraft]

I absolutely won't touch anyone's home computer junk. I hate working on computer repairs, software or hardware. What's worse, do some work for about 10 people, free or for money, and you end up with a herd of about 10 zombies stalking you for free work or advice.

I am contracturally required to disclose and request any side buisness I do, so that's an easy way to say no.

If I needed more money I would only do business networks and include a year of support in the quote. Also a very detailed SLA for what the contract covers and response times. That takes way more effort than I'm willing to put forth. And then theres all the unpaid efforts for drumming up buisness, taxes, etc.

It's amazing how some customers take all the fun out of being in business, and then these same folks complain about how there aren't enough experts in business who know how to do things anymore.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Living in a small town, I've found a fairly simple solution. Wife doesn't let me answer my cellphone on weekends because it's also my work phone and I've gotten called in on a Saturday. So even staff know that now. Friends know not to call on weekends, that is our sacred time together.

But BUT! We do love fish and venison so for people I know I will exchange computer work for either. I know their time, equipment, gas, and dressing the product is also money. So we usually end up with a good trade. I always have some fresh king salmon or halibut for the wife. and often during hunting season I get a few venison roasts or steaks. And venison burger too. She loves that kind of work!

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Good morning GOF's! Have a great grumpy week!

 

[BassmanPaul]

One video I saw a Russian pilot eject from a burning plane and after landing got up and casually started lighting up a cigarette. Pilots! Gotta have nerves of steel I guess....

If the plane don’t getcha the cancer will!

 

[Al Kraft]

If the plane don’t getcha the cancer will!

Reminds me of the story about the pilot who had a hard landing which caused the nose gear to collapse almost immediately after touchdown. The plane then tumbled down the runway shedding parts until finally coming to a stop on its side. The emergency crew arrived at the crash just as the pilot was climbing our of what was left of the airplane and one of the firefighters asked the pilot, what happened? The pilot looked up and said, I have no idea, I just got here myself.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Dang, y’all...take a few days off from here, and all hell breaks loose.

I’m fine, thanks, in spite of the most recent lab results (more later) simply because the hot wife and I came to the conclusion that come hell or high water, I’m retiring from day gig end of the year. Early, but whatever.

Y’all be nice, take care of your loved ones ( primary reason for my action) and take care of yourselves..regardless of how cool our hobbies are, how cool our professional lives and goodies are, our loved ones are all we really have

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Dang, y’all...take a few days off from here, and all hell breaks loose.

I’m fine, thanks, in spite of the most recent lab results (more later) simply because the hot wife and I came to the conclusion that come hell or high water, I’m retiring from day gig end of the year. Early, but whatever.

Y’all be nice, take care of your loved ones ( primary reason for my action) and take care of yourselves..regardless of how cool our hobbies are, how cool our professional lives and goodies are, our loved ones are all we really have

Amen brudda!