Get off my LAWN! "Grumpy Old Farts"

[beans-on-toast]

Harrison Ford in the Fugitive with the pharma company was a little too close for comfort.

 

[LBS-bass]

When a pesky pollster calls, many people lie to purposely skew the results.

Scientific studies should be more accurate. Unfortunately, fixing data to get more funding or material published is not unheard of in this competitive world. It doesn’t end well if they eventually get caught.

They should be, but the reality of this is that they will only be as accurate as their funding allows. It's not even usually about fixing results, though that can happen. Full confession: I worked for a University research department and was assistant managing editor of a medical research journal for five years. Prior to this, I had a background in survey research for media and worked for a very meticulous researcher who put a great deal of thought and effort into how he structured his research questionnaires.

Guess where I saw the sloppiest work being done? At the University level we had surveys being developed by graduate students in health policy who had little to no background in survey design or statistics. Sloppy, misleading questions with loaded language were not uncommon; I could point this out, but I had no real input into survey design so my comments weren't always well received. Flaws in methodology that would result in bias due to survey fatigue (things like not rotating questions so that the same questions were not always asked in the same order) were common. I could go on and on. Was really eye-opening.

 

[the harp unstrung]

Well, hang on...^^^ ‘Like’ isn’t really the proper reaction to that post, is it?

 

[LBS-bass]

Well, hang on...^^^ ‘Like’ isn’t really the proper reaction to that post, is it?

The response options here are very limited, yes.

 

[SoulReflection]

Just for fun...

What makes a GOF?

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Harrison Ford in the Fugitive with the pharma company was a little too close for comfort.

Was that the one where he was an IT manager? Because he lost me when he took apart a sheet bed scanner and used it as some sort of tricked out device! As an IT guy the movie had a lot of holes. They should have consulted at least a PC support guy or gal!

 

[beans-on-toast]

Was that the one where he was an IT manager? Because he lost me when he took apart a sheet bed scanner and used it as some sort of tricked out device! As an IT guy the movie had a lot of holes. They should have consulted at least a PC support guy or gal!

He was a doctor in that movie. Are you thinking of Firewall?

 

[alaskaleftybass]

He was a doctor in that movie. Are you thinking of Firewall?

Yes sir! I think they forgot to consult IT on that one! LOL

 

[GonePlaid]

Well, hang on...^^^ ‘Like’ isn’t really the proper reaction to that post, is it?

True. But liking the insight.

 

[Haroldo]

Guess where I saw the sloppiest work being done? At the University level we had surveys being developed by graduate students in health policy who had little to no background in survey design or statistics. Sloppy, misleading questions with loaded language were not uncommon; I could point this out, but I had no real input into survey design so my comments weren't always well received. Flaws in methodology that would result in bias due to survey fatigue (things like not rotating questions so that the same questions were not always asked in the same order) were common. I could go on and on. Was really eye-opening.

And that's the stuff that should be taught. And, frighteningly, isn't a lot of the time.

Well, hang on...^^^ ‘Like’ isn’t really the proper reaction to that post, is it?

Quite right.

 

[LBS-bass]

And that's the stuff that should be taught. And, frighteningly, isn't a lot of the time.

And the reason for that is money and time. At this level of medical and policy research, funding, chasing after funding, and publishing are the primary drivers of everything that's done. Ideally, you have time to tweak your study materials for these problems, but everyone's running around trying to conduct three or four studies at once, writing grant proposals, and when actual MDs are involved they are also precepting, seeing patients, and doing a half-dozen other things, so there's no time or money to make time.

True, double-blind studies with large sample sizes are incredibly expensive to conduct. It's very rare you end up with that kind of funding.

Academia is a place where work is churned out by very smart people who generally know where their funding limitations are and so they will address these issues as caveats when they publish. "Further research is needed..." I worked with some absolutely brilliant researchers. They're just doing what they can, but it isn't perfect.

I think a lot of people have a very skewed view of what goes on in medical research and how much doctors know. Do you know what the best doctors actually know? They know that they don't know very much.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

And the reason for that is money and time. At this level of medical and policy research, funding, chasing after funding, and publishing are the primary drivers of everything that's done. Ideally, you have time to tweak your study materials for these problems, but everyone's running around trying to conduct three or four studies at once, writing grant proposals, and when actual MDs are involved they are also precepting, seeing patients, and doing a half-dozen other things, so there's no time or money to make time.

True, double-blind studies with large sample sizes are incredibly expensive to conduct. It's very rare you end up with that kind of funding.

Academia is a place where work is churned out by very smart people who generally know where their funding limitations are and so they will address these issues as caveats when they publish. "Further research is needed..." I worked with some absolutely brilliant researchers. They're just doing what they can, but it isn't perfect.

I think a lot of people have a very skewed view of what goes on in medical research and how much doctors know. Do you know what the best doctors actually know? They know that they don't know very much.

Wow. Very eye-opening, insightful, and definitely scary! But on the flip side, some ailments that were death sentences 30 years ago are standard outpatient procedures now. It isn't a perfect system, but I'm glad we have people working towards miraculous cures of our worst diseases. Sheesh... too much coffee for me!

 

[Haroldo]

And the reason for that is money and time. At this level of medical and policy research, funding, chasing after funding, and publishing are the primary drivers of everything that's done. Ideally, you have time to tweak your study materials for these problems, but everyone's running around trying to conduct three or four studies at once, writing grant proposals, and when actual MDs are involved they are also precepting, seeing patients, and doing a half-dozen other things, so there's no time or money to make time.

True, double-blind studies with large sample sizes are incredibly expensive to conduct. It's very rare you end up with that kind of funding.

Academia is a place where work is churned out by very smart people who generally know where their funding limitations are and so they will address these issues as caveats when they publish. "Further research is needed..." I worked with some absolutely brilliant researchers. They're just doing what they can, but it isn't perfect.

I think a lot of people have a very skewed view of what goes on in medical research and how much doctors know. Do you know what the best doctors actually know? They know that they don't know very much.

I concur. I was advocating for the research curriculum to have more design of experiment / practical statistics work in it. Possibly at the practicum level, which I realize is what to some degree grad school is, but I'd like to to see it formalized. Epidemiological Study 501 - where your previous concerns could be addressed. ("At the University level we had surveys being developed by graduate students in health policy who had little to no background in survey design or statistics. Sloppy, misleading questions with loaded language were not uncommon.") I don't know med research / training very well, but I used to know how it was done in physics / engineering. Maybe Epidemiological Study 501 or its siblings already exist.

This is inchoate. My apologies.

 

[LBS-bass]

Wow. Very eye-opening, insightful, and definitely scary! But on the flip side, some ailments that were death sentences 30 years ago are standard outpatient procedures now. It isn't a perfect system, but I'm glad we have people working towards miraculous cures of our worst diseases. Sheesh... too much coffee for me!

Very true. And one of the things I always have to remind myself is that there is little to no professed certainty among scientists. The good ones always remain open to new information. With doctors, a lot of what they do is make educated guesses based on the best available information. But the guesses are well-educated, so it's not like they're stabbing in the dark.

However, they still get it wrong. There was a time in the not-too distant past when stomach ulcers were thought to be the result of stress and spicy food. Then one guy decided to explore the possibility that bacteria might be the cause. If I remember the tale correctly (and I might not have it exactly right) he was discouraged from doing that research because "everyone knew" that it was stress and eating habits causing all those ulcers.

Well, now we know that h. pylori causes most stomach ulcers, thanks to that one guy persevering despite the discouragement. But the kicker to this story? It took quite a while after his research was reviewed and published before the average doctor in practice was willing to change their clinical routine. Long after that guy's research was out there, people with ulcers were still being told to eat a bland diet and try to control stress.

 

[GwenOnBass]

When a pesky pollster calls, many people lie to purposely skew the results..

Structural anthropology 101: people are the same everywhere.

And that's the stuff that should be taught. And, frighteningly, isn't a lot of the time.

Quite right.

It's what I was taught, and (unfortunately) there was time.

Harrison Ford in the Fugitive with the pharma company was a little too close for comfort.

Robert DiNero in Brazil was a little too close for comfort.

Very true. And one of the things I always have to remind myself is that there is little to no professed certainty among scientists. The good ones always remain open to new information. With doctors, a lot of what they do is make educated guesses based on the best available information. But the guesses are well-educated, so it's not like they're stabbing in the dark.

However, they still get it wrong. There was a time in the not-too distant past when stomach ulcers were thought to be the result of stress and spicy food. Then one guy decided to explore the possibility that bacteria might be the cause. If I remember the tale correctly (and I might not have it exactly right) he was discouraged from doing that research because "everyone knew" that it was stress and eating habits causing all those ulcers.

Well, now we know that h. pylori causes most stomach ulcers, thanks to that one guy persevering despite the discouragement. But the kicker to this story? It took quite a while after his research was reviewed and published before the average doctor in practice was willing to change their clinical routine. Long after that guy's research was out there, people with ulcers were still being told to eat a bland diet and try to control stress.

We also have two people with the same symptoms and generally same physical state, and one recovers while the other doesn't. This is when doctors may think along the lines of good time to take a break.

 

[Stumbo]

Great information on current medical, otc and home remedies: https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/

 

[Haroldo]

Structural anthropology 101: people are the same everywhere.

'Cept drummers.

 

[Sbassman Scratch]

'Cept drummers.

And when drummer stops, ughhhhaaah!

 

[GwenOnBass]

'Cept drummers.

400 level class infos for graduation year.

 

[LBS-bass]

And when drummer stops, ughhhhaaah!

Don't look at me. I don't solo for squat.