Getting Higher On Bass (E-F 6-string)

[bearfoot]

I've been working on solo + looping + additional musician possibilities, which brings me back to my Ibanez SR506, a bit of a looping dream machine once you get into it.

But I realize, I can't quite get the lead tones I need with the high C-string octave'd up.

The thought was to use a .16 guitar string for an F, and get started on the E-F experiment. There wasn't quite enough length on the guitar string to make that work, so I ordered a set of these

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plus a .28w and an .18p for the C and F.

Missing the lowest notes on the SR506 will be something to adjust to, but if I like the high F , the plan is to get a hipshot tuner for the E-string, and I also have a modest effects pedal

to synthesize lower tones from as needed -

I may also experiment with sending a high-passed signal to a tube guitar amp and using that as the high end of the whole sound, or a mixture of the top PA signal.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Get a seven string bass set and use six.

 

[ixlramp]

I recommend a .016p over a .018p F, more flexible, more harmonic tone, more playable. A .018 plain steel is really stiff.
I also recommend a .025 C for lower tension and more playability.
D'Addario 'Loop end' plain steel strings are cheap and extremely long, more than long enough for a bass, you just need to add an improvised ball end. I use a M6 x 5mm length grub/set screw, it screws into the loop nicely. Try to ensure the core wire rests in the groove of the screw thread.

 

[srayb]

I've experimented with different tunings also on a SR506. Usually using D'Addario XL strings... they make so many different gauges and they are always consistently good quality, I suggest get as many gauges as you want and then try them to see what gauges you end up liking the best for a particular tuning. Then keep them all on hand for when you want to try yet another tuning!

 

[Aidil]

I recommend a .016p over a .018p F, more flexible, more harmonic tone, more playable. A .018 plain steel is really stiff.

I don't feel 018p for the high-F really stiff at all. I came from having 020p high-F on my 35"er for years and now I'm using 018p. I imagine on a 34", it'll be even more comfortable to play.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Roland guerin gets away with EADGCF. You should be fine

 

[Jon Moody]

Missing the lowest notes on the SR506 will be something to adjust to, but if I like the high F , the plan is to get a hipshot tuner for the E-string, and I also have a modest effects pedal to synthesize lower tones from as needed

I don't think you'll miss them as much as you think. Granted, a low B/C is pretty fun to pedal on, but I rarely use the additional notes on a B string. If anything, I find that I stay anchored on the 5th-7th frets of the B string more and using it that way.

Get a seven string bass set and use six.

Not a cost-effective solution, given that the Low B string (that the OP would be throwing out) is the most expensive string in that set. By a lot.

 

[ixlramp]

Aidil, certainly it's a case of perspective, to the typical bassist a .018 may seem flexible and/or low tension.
However to be clear, by 'stiffness' i mean the scientific definition of stiffness, not tension or how tight it feels. Whatever the tension is (including zero tension), a thick plain steel is inherently stiff (resists being bent) and so is a little inharmonic.
Going from .016 to .017 to .018 i have noticed tone to suffer due to inharmonicity.
The thread author's needs seem to be a full range guitar with more guitar-like high strings.

In terms of tension, a .016 F is plenty enough tension (20 lbf) to properly support vibration without floppiness, it just can't be played as hard.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Not a cost-effective solution, given that the Low B string (that the OP would be throwing out) is the most expensive string in that set. By a lot.

He could use for a BEAD bass or sell it.

 

[Jon Moody]

He could use for a BEAD bass or sell it.

Or just get the singles he needs the first time?

 

[Watchootognbout]

Or just get the singles he needs the first time?

I bow to the authority.

 

[Aidil]

Roland guerin gets away with EADGCF. You should be fine

Guerin's latest BTB is a 33" scale. Certainly would be beneficial having E to F tuning on a medium scale bass rather than on a regular OP's 34" scale or Guerin's old BTB 35" scale.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Guerin's latest BTB is a 33" scale. Certainly would be beneficial having E to F tuning on a medium scale bass rather than on a regular OP's 34" scale or Guerin's old BTB 35" scale.

educate me why is that?

 

[Jon Moody]

Guerin's latest BTB is a 33" scale. Certainly would be beneficial having E to F tuning on a medium scale bass rather than on a regular OP's 34" scale or Guerin's old BTB 35" scale.

I don't see why that's a factor? My 35" scale Surine 7st sounds awesome and has a wonderfully warm tone.

 

[bearfoot]

Strings made it in on schedule

so I gave the bass a second cleaning, and tried to capture the beauty of the grain in a few photos

before taking this journey into heathen lands by shifting the range on the instrument higher

I have only played an hour or so in this configuration, just the bass no fx no looping.

One thing with a neck this wide and my hands is, I have to wear it just right, fairly high, or it will positively wreck my wrist in short order. This bass feels like more than 34". It's a serious piece of lumber than makes you work for what advantages it can bring, and does reward you with a thick, snarling articulate tone that now goes to some very chiming and potentially wailing territory with the high F ~

It's strange not having the low string at first. The E string might be sitting a tad high now at the nut. The whole neck feels like it needs a bit of straightening, and then some intonating at the bridge -

XL nickel rounds to me sound sweet and dialed in straight away, with grit available if you dig in, and are fun to play in these light gauges. Of course the .18p is brighter than the other strings, but like with guitar, you just make it work -

ended with a midnight rendition of "All Along the Watchtower"

It's an interesting accompaniment / bass / lead machine in this tuning, yet retaining a mostly basslike feel and sound.

 

[Aidil]

educate me why is that?

Don't know about you guys, but I think some of us do notice when playing our 6 string bass that the high-C sounds not coherent with the rest. More apparent when the bass is 35" (or longer) scale, the high-C often gets too tight and twangy sounding. Likewise when a high-F (high-A#, high-D#, etc) string(s) is(/are) on board.

Just as longer than 34" scale could benefit the low-B (and low F# and even low C#), shorter than 34" scale could benefit the higher strings. It's the part that a multi-scale bass has its advantages. It could have tight and clear sounding low-B as well as less tight and less twangy sounding high-C (and high-F).

So, the new 6 string 33" scale BTB that Guerin received from Ibanez is probably more comforting to play as well as better sounding on the higher strings than his older 35" BTB as he strings them E to F.

I don't see why that's a factor? My 35" scale Surine 7st sounds awesome and has a wonderfully warm tone.

I'm sure it is, Jon.

My BTB7 is also a 35" 7er. It is a well built machine and capable of producing wide array of tone. But in terms of acoustic string to string performance, I could hear inconsistency as I play the thinner strings, although not so much when I hear the amplified sound as other factors are added in. So, not that this is a big deal. In fact, I've never really regarded this as a problem.

On my last post, I mentioned Guerin's new medium scale 6 string BTB, which is 2" shorter than his regular 35" scale 6 string BTB, as something that he and Ibanez must have taken into consideration as a beneficial factor in relation that he prefers to string his instruments E to F.

 

[Aidil]

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The E string might be sitting a tad high now at the nut.

This somewhat might be solved by setting the string witness point on the nut. Your last pic is showing that the E string witness point on the nut hasn't been set. Refer to other post here on TB on the topic of setting strings' witness point, in case you aren't familiar with the concept.

Other than that, either the nut bottom might need some sanding or you might need to file the slots' bottom curve so that the strings could sit lower.

 

[ixlramp]

Of course the .18p is brighter than the other strings,

That's one of the reasons i recommend a smaller gauge F, for lower tension and lower mass, so less volume and a mellower tone, for a better blend with the wounds.

More apparent when the bass is 35" (or longer) scale, the high-C often gets too tight and twangy sounding. Likewise when a high-F (high-A#, high-D#, etc) string(s) is(/are) on board.

Tension can be reduced by reducing the gauge of the high strings. Could what you have noticed be the result of not reducing the gauges to compensate for the longer scale? In other words, perhaps this is only a result of using mainstream sets?

 

[Aidil]

Tension can be reduced by reducing the gauge of the high strings. Could what you have noticed be the result of not reducing the gauges to compensate for the longer scale? In other words, perhaps this is only a result of using mainstream sets?

That is of course indeed. But, there aren't that many gauge options for the high-C and high-F.

I've switched down from .020p to .018p for the high-F. As these are plain steel strings, it doesn't really matter which brand I use, cause they'll sound similar. For most, I can just retain my D'Addario .018p high-F whenever I switch brands/types on the remaining strings.

The same case doesn't directly apply on the high-C string. As l've switched quite many string brands, most of them only have 1 gauge option for high-C. Sure .028 will have lower tension than .032, but I can't just retain the .028 Pressurewound with .045/.125 Super Bright, cause it'll be the alien sounding and feeling amongst the others.

 

[bearfoot]

I gave the strings a good push for setting witness points, just in case that actually does something

Playing the bass like this for a few sessions now, all I can say for now is it's a different animal entirely.
I probably will try .25w and .16p for the top strings at some point, just to see if I prefer it. With .28w and .18p they do bark out a bit, but it just depends on what I'm doing, and I keep finding a slight volume boost on the top strings might be desirable with how I'm playing.

Like one song I got into for quite a while was "Suzy Q", which I am familiar with the original picking pattern for guitar from. I find having the bass E-F makes that find of playing fairly intuitive, perhaps even preferable to B-C.

Having the F string is a weird thing, isn't it? Because we're used to popping our harmonics on very different notes. It will tangle up your brain if you start thinking in conventional guitar tuning, but is smooth as butter in bass-mind.

The first really cool open sound thing I did was to drop down to D, and play some D-minor jams in first position. MASSIVE
That high F also changes some of the things I do in a F or Bb context. The first solo song I worked up on 6-string is David Bowie's "Space Oddity" and the F string gives a different feel there. Very cool to fingerpick a C chord and have that suspension on an open string, and it's also quite handy on the Bb chord.

The mid-selector switch is a godsend on the 506, as one position really brings out the fingerpick sound much better than the other.

I'm just getting started here. Actually this re-stringing ended up prompting a whole home studio space reset as well, moving my entire live rig in to the central living room portion of my house (I live alone ).

Fun times with the 6-string, a rather unforgiving beast - in muting, in weight, and approach of the fretting hand. There will be no thumb-hooking on a neck like that!