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Getting more 'attack' from a P-Bass

Ok, lots of great insights advice here, but also tons of questions. I'll try to sort this out as best I can.

As to what he meant by 'attack' -- from what I recall, he was asking for more bite or growl. He didn't say that exactly, but that seemed to be the implication. There was no mention of how hard to hit the strings or playing dynamics, just output from the bass itself. I'm not in a place to knock his expertise at all so I won't go there, and from what I can tell he's pretty legit.

The recordings sounded fine in the end, so all's well that ends well. What made me take note of this though was that he had the same feedback for me on two separate occasions, so I wanted to see if anyone else had experienced this before. I'm not a seasoned veteran of the studio, so just trying to get some thoughts on it.

As to the recordings, I'm not really able to share those since they haven't been mastered yet or anything.
 
There was no mention of how hard to hit the strings or playing dynamics, just output from the bass itself.

Output depends on how hard you hit the strings.

To say that your perceived dynamics in a mix are ONLY technique related and have nothing at all to do with your bass or tone is incorrect IMHO.

Read back to my post about single magnet vs dual magnet pickups and attack.
Attack still has nothing to do with tone. They are two completely separate things.
 
My question is, (without of course knowing if the pickups were faulty) should I look into adding some sort of overdrive, or a preamp to my setup? Right now I just go PBass into amp (or DI in the studio), no effects. I've always loved the P tone, but if it's going to be my workhorse, what could I do to maybe add a little more presence to it? FWIW, I typically play rock in the style of bands like Wilco, MMJ, Dr Dog, etc. But I also take on some Motown/Soul stuff from time to time.

If you love the sound of your bass, you can tell the producer to kindly engage in intercourse with himself.

Otherwise: Rounds - new, boost midrange, raise pickups/lower action could all help.
 
Attack still has nothing to do with tone. They are two completely separate things.

The frequency response characteristics of a string do affect attack though, as attack isn't just about amplitude. A brighter string will give more attack than a duller one, but with the attack more focused on higher harmonics than the fundamental frequency. The sustain and decay is more first harmonic.
 
For me, attack is mostly about dynamics. A strong attack has a very large volume spike right after striking the string, (1-2 ms). IMO, the best way to achieve this is using high output amp with lots of headroom and a light technique. I think many players depend on heavy right-hand technique to create attack. But that has an affect similar to heavy compression. The heavier the right-hand, the longer the finger stays on the string. That mutes the initial spike. IMO, this is why picked basses have a very strong attack and a brighter tone. The pick strikes the string quickly and does not stay on the string for very long. Plus the pick has less mass to dampen the string than a finger. If you want great attack, take a lesson from classical guitarists and use a light touch with minimal string contact. In our case, you need to match that up to a very powerful amp with lots of headroom so that the dynamics translate through the amp and speaker system.
1+
I generally play with a light touch through a Jule Amps Monique preamp and a very high power amplifier (Jule Amps M2500). I find that notes leap off my fingers. Never have a problem getting very quick attack.
 
I'm primarily a P-bass player, and I love the idea of keeping things simple - one bass, two knobs. But a few recent studio experiences have me wondering if I need to augment my situation in some way. I'm also not a studio guy, just showed up to record some tracks for a friend, so I'm not expert in how it all goes.

In the past year, I recorded two separate tracks with an American Standard P-bass. Both times, the producer (same one each time) remarked that I wasn't getting enough 'attack' from the bass to situate it properly in the mix. Even after opening up the tone fully, it still wasn't quite enough for one of the tracks - I ended up using a pick super close to the bridge just to get a little more bite. The track sounds ok, but not nearly as meaty as it should've been. (I should note that I was using GHS pressurewounds on this particular bass).

My question is, (without of course knowing if the pickups were faulty) should I look into adding some sort of overdrive, or a preamp to my setup? Right now I just go PBass into amp (or DI in the studio), no effects. I've always loved the P tone, but if it's going to be my workhorse, what could I do to maybe add a little more presence to it? FWIW, I typically play rock in the style of bands like Wilco, MMJ, Dr Dog, etc. But I also take on some Motown/Soul stuff from time to time.
Well in answer to your question I would say a couple of things. First of all if you're recording directly to whatever interface they have in the studio it should be picking up the nuances of the attack of your finger or pick on the strings fairly easily. Strings that are very light gauge I find don't have a lot of attack. Maybe the pickups you could raise closer to the strings, or try flatwounds as they have a very thumpy attack and the fundamental is right there with them. Other than that for Studio work, some broken in 45 - 105 round wounds should get the job done without an issue.
 
First thread EVER about a P bass not working in the studio.

My suggestion is a different producer.

+1, he has some issues. For one, his method of communication with the bass player, using a term that has several semantic uses, attack as pertained to ADSR envelope?(audio engineering 101) Attack as pertained to the physical act of striking the strings? (Technique) or attack as to any number of "common sense" logic influenced, incorrect uses of the term (ahem TALKBASS/players who are not also actual engineers and/or are self taught/improperly taught regarding techniques and the actual terms to describe them, again "common sense" logic) such as "attack means more treble" "attack means more bass" "attack means more low mids" "attack means grindy mids" "attack means use overdrive"....um no, that's what attack means to you and your buddies.

An experienced producer would have told OP exactly what he needed to do to achieve the tone he (the producer) wanted. It was not a one thing issue, but the fact that the producer didn't ask " what type of strings are you using and how long since you changed them?" Says novels about how "green" this producer is. A good producer will diagnose playing technique and then make suggestions that address the issues without overwhelming the player or being condescending (but sometimes the solution involves having someone else lay down the track).

A good producer will hand you a pack of strings and say, restring this and let's try it, rather than waste time trying to fix the issue with eq and compression. Eq and compression on the "board" end/digital domain, are to make it sit in the mix, not to totally shape the sound/envelope. That is McDemo studio logic, no time to do it right, "we'll fix it in the mix, I watched YouTube videos on how to eq and compress the bass, don't worry, I got you bro!" ("McDemo ©1998 ubernator). Only McDemo "producers" (usually 2nd rate "engineers" with more money than talent, it takes money to have a studio built and buy gear, but money can't buy talent/experience), operate in this manner, which is not conducive to a good final product)

An Experienced producer will not waste time tracking dead bass strings unless that is the desired effect (p with flats/Motown/sludge/1970 geezer tone etc). An experienced producer knows how to deal with zingy strings, (cut, not boost, audio engineering 101) and will not suggest chicken grease or barbeque sauce. Most major label albums took several sets of fresh strings to achieve (DNA soaked clean strings can be rotated to save money on more realistic budgets, but since it takes 24 hrs this only applies to album length sessions over several days/weeks.)

A good producer makes sure your bass is properly set up and intonated, intonation will be adjusted through out the session as the strings stretch etc...

A good producer knows to address the way the bass player dials in his preamp/amp/effects/dynamics, and when to say, "sorry bro, you need to take that/those pedal(s) out of the chain". A good producer understands the concept of maximizing signal to noise levels via preamp gain, rather than " work around " the way the bass player likes to dial in his amp, which in 90% of the time is not the best way for proper gain structure (same with skinnys but 90% of them is a lot more people than 90% of us). For rock, this usually means running the input stage of the amp right before clipping or into light clipping, NOT gain down and master up, using the gain as the volume (proper bass amp use 101).

A good producer knows that dynamics are NOT your friend. A good producer does not want a "dynamic" bass player, a good producer wants a consistent "attack" (technique), not each note at a different volume when driving a rock song. The bast compliment a good producer can give a bass player is to allow him to use his fingers. A little known fact, when a producer requests a pick where you normally would finger, it means you don't have a consistent attack. Rick Allen from def leppard was quoted saying "I play with a pick because my attack is not consistent all over the neck and the producer would go crazy trying to compress me if I used my fingers.

This is where the " dig in " guys are in the right and the finesse guys are in the wrong, unless they are VERRRY good. For rock it is better to dig in and have strong fingers and calluses or use a pick. Finesse and dynamic playing have their place, but not there. Semantically, dynamic does not mean punchy and in your face, it means having parts all over the volume spectrum, playing soft on one part and then exploding on another. Classical music has a wide dynamic range, most rock has a very narrow range, and the entire mix is compressed in mastering.

A good rock producer does not just DI a bass, or stick a mic on a bass amp. A good producer takes a mix of DI, clean solid state (or tube) bass amp miked up, AND an overdriven tube amp (bassman/Marshall) to get the sound, rather than try to get it all from one amp or direct into a modeler. (Reamping is for the best of the best session players who cost so much per hour that it is only feasable to record the performance DI and then figure out the tone later, which requires that they have perfect dynamics control, which is why they get the big bucks). In the real world, get the tone to tape, the amps and high end DIs are a big part of the tone.

Most good producers are also good bass players and vice versa, they go hand in hand. Many good audio engineers live and studio are also good bass players.

This is what attack is:
instrument_create.jpg

The V stands for volume.

Attack has nothing to do with tone.

Everything comes into play, bad technique equals bad tone, no matter how good the bass and amp are. But I see what you ate trying to say. This is audio engineering 101, ADSR envelope. When a bass player is concerned, the waveform is directly affected by the players physical attack, which is also further altered by the use of pick, finger ( pizzicato, rake, drag, pop, pluck, tap) or thumb (slap, pluck) etc... In synthesis, this is done electronically, bass players do it mechanically, and electromangnetically via the pickup/gain stage/power stage/mechanical stage(speaker/mic) before going into the engineers gain stages.

And again, tone is in the fingers, even when they hold a pick. The physical attack of the string has a huge effect on tone. When someone tells you "pick changes attack not tone" they are only correct in an over anylitical technical semantic argument. In reality, the low end response is different between a pick and a fleshy finger with a slower attack. If the low end is not part of the "tone", then I don't know what " tone" is. Listen to engineers, not guitar players. Guitar players are guilty of the worst misuse of all of these terms.



Swap the pressurewounds for stainless steel. Also, forget the pick. The thing with picks is that they don't have enough low end. Go for a more aggressive finger style (kinda like Geddy), much more powerful.

If all this fails, them go for a pedal.
the padawan was correct that fingers have more low end, but you can still use a pick and turn up the lows on the amp.

Reliance on pedals is the path to the dark side. First learn to control the force, feel it flowing through your fingers. Pedals can be used incorrectly or have crappy signal flow. $$$$$ boutique true bypass pedals still need knowledge of gain structure to properly operate. And even most of those pedals can't hold a candle to $1500 per channel dynamics processors used in good studios. When all else fails, have a good producer and listen to him. Yes, to obi wan you listen, remember your failure in the man cave project studio ;)
 
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When I started reading OP's post, the first thing that came to my mind is "weird non-round non-flats".
And then he mentioned Pressurewounds.
I have the same problem with half-rounds on one of my Ps. They don't sound bad but they dullen precisely what makes the Precision great. Just get rid of 'em.
 
As to the recordings, I'm not really able to share those since they haven't been mastered yet or anything

This speaks volumes as to the skill of this producer. This sounds like "fix it in the mix", or worse yet, " mastering will fix that "

This sounds like a classic McDemo. A rough mix of good tracks would still sound good enough to share, otherwise you have a turd and are hoping for someone to provide turd polish in the mastering process. Harvey Weinberg can only do so much, and would probably not put his name on something that was not already a slammin mix to begin with.

Either that or it is the band leader being overly protective.
 
But I see what you ate trying to say. This is audio engineering 101, ADSR envelope. When a bass player is concerned, the waveform is directly affected by the players physical attack, which is also further altered by the use of pick, finger ( pizzicato, rake, drag, pop, pluck, tap) or thumb (slap, pluck) etc... In synthesis, this is done electronically, bass players do it mechanically, and electromangnetically via the pickup/gain stage/power stage/mechanical stage(speaker/mic) before going into the engineers gain stages.

And again, tone is in the fingers, even when they hold a pick. The physical attack of the string has a huge effect on tone. When someone tells you "pick changes attack not tone" they are only correct in an over anylitical technical semantic argument. In reality, the low end response is different between a pick and a fleshy finger with a slower attack. If the low end is not part of the "tone", then I don't know what " tone" is. Listen to engineers, not guitar players. Guitar players are guilty of the worst misuse of all of these terms.

If we really want to get into language, there's a lot of confusion going on between attack as a noun (the ASDR envelope diagram) and attack as a verb (to attack the strings) as well.

When I'm producing I would never tell someone "not enough attack" without also suggesting a solution, to make sure they know what I'm talking about. So I would say "I'd like some more attack, can you go a little harder with your right hand on this take?" As compared to "I'd like you to cut through more, can you use more bridge pickup or play closer to the bridge?"
 
There are countless recordings out where a P-bass with controls wide open has been fed by DI into a channel in an analog mixing console. Most of them managed to get a great bass sound, with plenty of attack.

I have a feeling that we're talking about digital interfaces, and digital recording here (as most of it is these days).
A lot of times the virtual channel in the DAW isn't going to give you the same dynamics as a real channel strip would.

If your producer can't get a good sound, it's possibly his equipment/technique and not yours.
Even on my cheap and cheerful home stuff I've been able to get great sounds by avoiding over-processing in the DAW. The Analog to digital interface can really suck the life out of certain instruments.
Try using a channel strip, or preamp of some description. Even a little Behringer MIC100 can add a little oomph - even if it's not true tube saturation.
Sounds to me that you lost some clarity in the hardware.

That and a new set of rounds.... :)
 
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If we really want to get into language, there's a lot of confusion going on between attack as a noun (the ASDR envelope diagram) and attack as a verb (to attack the strings) as well.

When I'm producing I would never tell someone "not enough attack" without also suggesting a solution, to make sure they know what I'm talking about. So I would say "I'd like some more attack, can you go a little harder with your right hand on this take?" As compared to "I'd like you to cut through more, can you use more bridge pickup or play closer to the bridge?"
A perfect example of my statement that most good producers are good bass players and vice versa.

And a much more direct and to the point way of explaining what I just wrote an article about. Brevity and simplicity is not my strong point in communication.
 
I would not add overdrive or a preamp. This may only serve to "buffer" or complicate things (read: add additional problems) between your bass and its line in. Its a P-bass. Keep it simple. Try fresh and heavier gauge strings? I use .050-.105. Use your right hand closer to the bridge? Raise your pickups to within 1/8" inch of the strings. Lastly look into replacement pickups. Keep it simple.
 
I'm primarily a P-bass player, and I love the idea of keeping things simple - one bass, two knobs. But a few recent studio experiences have me wondering if I need to augment my situation in some way. I'm also not a studio guy, just showed up to record some tracks for a friend, so I'm not expert in how it all goes.

In the past year, I recorded two separate tracks with an American Standard P-bass. Both times, the producer (same one each time) remarked that I wasn't getting enough 'attack' from the bass to situate it properly in the mix. Even after opening up the tone fully, it still wasn't quite enough for one of the tracks - I ended up using a pick super close to the bridge just to get a little more bite. The track sounds ok, but not nearly as meaty as it should've been. (I should note that I was using GHS pressurewounds on this particular bass).

My question is, (without of course knowing if the pickups were faulty) should I look into adding some sort of overdrive, or a preamp to my setup? Right now I just go PBass into amp (or DI in the studio), no effects. I've always loved the P tone, but if it's going to be my workhorse, what could I do to maybe add a little more presence to it? FWIW, I typically play rock in the style of bands like Wilco, MMJ, Dr Dog, etc. But I also take on some Motown/Soul stuff from time to time.


Sorry I've not read the thread, but I recommend Geezer Butler signature EMG pickups for this purpose. (I also use the ghs pressurewounds, they mate perfectly with this pickup). The Geezers have a really nice bite/attack that you can further enhance with a pedal if needed.
 
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