getting 'my sound' at gigs

[Marcus Willett]

Your check is in the mail, Jimmy

As an epilogue to that story, the sub soundman heard another band I was with and happened to do sound there. I used the same setup, post DI from the TF750 (I use minimal to no EQ on the head), and he comes up after the first set and says

"Man, why won't you give us that sound at the show?"

"Ummmm....I am. Same bass, same head, same send...same everything."

So, he suggests we get together at the show to sort things out. No problem, I say...I actually want it sound good out front as much as he does.

I ask him the same thing "Why don't you come up on stage, hear my rig and then you can know what kind of sound I'm going for?" He says sure.

Comes up, I play a few notes. He says OK, sounds great up here...let's make it happen up front.

We try a few different things (his being willing to try a welcome change), and decide to stick with the post DI send on the TF750 with a few small tweaks.

I'm always willing to work with a soundman as long as it comes from the perspective that his job is to take my sound and do whatever he has to do to make it work out front. If he needs a few concessions on my part that's fine, but you're the soundman, not my producer. If my rig is part of my sound (and it is) you damn well better at least try to give me a fraction of the leeway you will unhesitatingly give a guitarist.

 

[fokof]

I'm always willing to work with a soundman as long as it comes from the perspective that his job is to take my sound and do whatever he has to do to make it work out front.

+100000000000 on that one
If I'd beleive in anything related to a god of some sort , I'd say "alleluyia"

Exactly what I always say; the important thing here is to do whatever , to "serve" the whole project , not the personal interst of a single musician (or soundman).
And when I play bass , my job is to play bass , not to mix FOH.

Just come up from a Casino gig (all the month of june) as a Bass player , not as a soundman, and the soundman (SM) there was asking me ;
SM ; you want a DI?
ME ; I don't care , I can give you an XLR , whatever you want!
SM ; yes but you're the bass player
ME ; yes but your the soundman
And so on....
then I had a little thought on these subject here a TB.....

 

[JimmyM]

So you're not as anal as Marcus and me...big deal

Got a question here, and I'm not trying to be combative, because this has happened to me more times than I'd like to count. What happens if you get a soundman who's not so good? Are you going to let him mix you poorly and have a crap FOH mix that doesn't work for your band? Or will you give him a few pointers that straightens out the sound and makes the difference between kicking ass or sucking?

 

[fokof]

So you're not as anal as Marcus and me...big deal

 

[fokof]

Got a question here, and I'm not trying to be combative, because this has happened to me more times than I'd like to count. What happens if you get a soundman who's not so good? Are you going to let him mix you poorly and have a crap FOH mix that doesn't work for your band? Or will you give him a few pointers that straightens out the sound and makes the difference between kicking ass or sucking?

Seriously THAT is THE question !!!!!!

MY experience on this , sorry if it's a long answer but I feel I can contribute on this one as I'm both bass player and soundman and make a living out of both jobs.

I was playing bass as a living ,then at a certain point , I started mixing , I didn't play much 'cause I had enough gigs to survive very well as a soundman only. Did this for 10 years , only sound.
In 2001 , I dusted off the basses and started back playing professionaly.
When I started back , I had all that experience as a soundman and were always saying to all the soundguys ; do this , do that , I know , I'm a soundman too......

Not anymore.

Now I just give him the XLR or plug in the DI or let them mike my amp (seriously , that never happened) and I just shut the f*** up.
I learned that it's not my job to mix when I play and if I start worrying about the sound on all my gigs , I will be de-concentrated as a bass player and it will affect my job.

Same thing as a soundman.
I stoped very fast to say to band ; your G string is little flat or it's not the right chord on that song.....

So YES , if the soundman on a gig suc* As* , I won't say a word.
The exception is ; if the person paying me , asks me to "intervine" (Spelled right?) because it's a nightmare , then I will give some pointers or cues.
What happened a couple of times is ; when I was saying stuff , it putted the people who were hiring me in difficult position 'cause it's them who were dealing with the producers($$$$$) of the show. Themselves were dealing with the sound company.

If , as a bass player or band member, I want the absolute best sound in the FOH , I will always hire a soundman I trust.
If I don't hire a guy, because I don't want to spend the money , and take the house guy , then it's a risk "I" (or we as a band) take.

 

[JimmyM]

You're a better man than I, Fokof. I can't do it. When the sound is bad, nobody blames the soundman. Instead, they say, "Boy that band sucked." I can't have that. Sorry.

OTOH, I have had soundmen tell me I'm too loud, or not loud enough, or I need to do this or that, and I always take their advice very seriously, except in those rare cases where the soundman is just a moron who thinks he's a genius. So if I can take it, so can they.

 

[fokof]

Usually , people can make the difference between a bad sound or a bad band.
It's usually the producer($$$$) who hires the soundguy/company if you don't have yours. If the guy who pays me is able to sleep with a bad sounding show or a bad production on his mind , then I can rest in peace too.
If you produce yourself , you just have yourself to blame for not hiring a good soundman.

 

[thunderstation]

Trusting your sound guy is the best advice I'd give - he's going for the overall mix- which is the bands sound and isn't that the point? to have a great sounding band?
Why not ask your sound man what he thinks would be a good mic - maybe he has some ideas on how to achieve your sound without sacrificing the music made with the band.

 

[Marcus Willett]

If the guy who pays me is able to sleep with a bad sounding show or a bad production on his mind , then I can rest in peace too.

Probably would make things easier if I could have this attitude. Can't do it tho; if it's going to sound bad there's no point in music at all and I'd rather just do something else.

 

[fokof]

Yeah but what is your definition of "bad sounding" ?
I'm very happy that I've learn how to sh** up, it really made me nervous on a lot of occasions....

I'm very very "anal" on sound , so I would always say something about the sound. There is always something I could tell a soundman about a resonating frequency , a slapback , a mix ,a dynamic , etc...
Like I stated earlier , I stoped doin' it because it came to a point where it got it the way of my bass playing.
There is a lot of musicians out there who doesn't say a word about the sound , you know..... I'm now one of them , even if I can replace any soundman on any gig......


I really hate to say this , but here I go; Been there , done that

 

[JimmyM]

I really hate to say this , but here I go; Been there , done that

Did you buy the T-shirt, too?

Anyway, your approach is valid. And I don't want to come off like I'm micromanaging everyone on a regular basis. On the majority of my gigs, I'll come offstage and listen to FOH during soundcheck, and 90% of the time I give them the thumbs up. For that rogue 10%, though...let's just say I've saved our asses more than once.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Yeah but what is your definition of "bad sounding" ?
There is a lot of musicians out there who doesn't say a word about the sound , you know..... I'm now one of them

I really hate to say this, but if you no longer care about how instruments sound (their primary and really only function is to create sound), then you should not be a musician in the first place.

It makes as much sense as a professional chef saying he no longer cares what the food he creates tastes like.

Just IMO of course, but if you've stopped caring, don't do it.

 

[JackANSI]

So you're not as anal as Marcus and me...big deal

Got a question here, and I'm not trying to be combative, because this has happened to me more times than I'd like to count. What happens if you get a soundman who's not so good? Are you going to let him mix you poorly and have a crap FOH mix that doesn't work for your band? Or will you give him a few pointers that straightens out the sound and makes the difference between kicking ass or sucking?

If the sound guy is making you sound like poop, give him poop about it. Thats kinda the rule.

Once I found out your genre was oldies, you ended up sounding a lot less 'anal' about the mic thing. Fact is thats probably how the original band would have had to handle it (mic, not DI). No one should really argue that one.

but back to the OP, would you recommend a similar mic to what you have for a Hartke HyDrive cab? That cabs got a horn in it, so its going to be tricky to mic (as far as placement) and pull the tone you hear from the cabinet through.

The only reason I favor a DI is because in some situations (Poor control of the amp by the bassist, not enough volume from the amp, or a really crappy room/stage) it CAN be a source for feedback. You can always choke down those frequencies with an EQ, but then you ARE playing with the bassists tone. Rather than screw with someone's tone (especially post cab where there isn't much room for adjustment before making things sound poopy), in that case I'd rather pull the sound from the DI (mostly).

Plus I deal more with modern tones that actually sound closer to the recording with DI.

 

[two fingers]

OK, so maybe you guys are top-notch pro bassists. I don't see many of those at my sound jobs. So when I say that I kind of "tell" them what they will use, you have to walk in my shoes for a bit. Most bassists are just weekend warriors who have only been playing for a few years. They have read JUST ENOUGH stuff on the internet to make them dangerous. So the confrontations I have had are usually the guy with a $200 bass and a 1-15 combo who wants "his sound" through a mic out front. You show up with a MTD 5 and an Aguilar stack and I'll throw a mic on it AND run a line out from your head (so I can blend them) so fast it'll make your head spin. Stereotype? Yes. I don't care. Plus, you guys stated that you don't do major volume jumps, and I'm sure your gear is reliable. I would tell you that in MOST cases, I take one look at your rig and I can tell you whether or not I'm running a DI. If your gear looks like it has been drug behind a truck, I'm running a DI so that if your rig cuts out I still have signal. I could list 40 other reasons why MOST of the time a DI is better. If you guys a pros and have great gear, congrats.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

A mic could do it, but a lot of sound men (including me) would fight you on it. "Your sound" is great to YOU, but it may not sit well in a band mix at all. It took me years of playing bass, and a couple of years of running sound to figure that out. A friend of mine owns a small sound company (two PA's....one big enough for outdoor festivals and the other able to handle up to large club dates). I've been working for him when he needs extra hands. I've learned a TON about stacking frequencies. If "your sound" is in the same frequency area as ....say....the kick drum, or floor tom(s), suddenly things get muddy. You have to let go and trust the sound guy. He has nothing to gain by making you sound bad. He keeps working if your band sounds great. Sorry to be the one to hit you with this, but absolutely NOBODY in the room cares about "your sound" while you are playing a show. All they care about is being entertained. YOU worry about that and let the guy behind the board handle everything else. Live music is a TEAM sport. Cold? Yes. But true none the less. Just trying to save you a few arguements down the road. If a bassist wanted me to mic a 15" speaker (which would probably be total MUD through a good strong PA) , I would tell him he has two choices. Stick his chord in this DI, or go run sound.

So true and great words. Use your rig for stage monitoring of your own sound as soon as a rig and enginer is involved.
I check for the enginer, not for me.
Me i go mike and Di, both options covered, even carry my own mike and DI box if required pre stage to give the enginer the best signal to work with if he has the channels. If not DI all the time

As for the bad enginer point, yes i have had them at certain venues. I don't expect anyone to get a bands sound they have never heard, but by talking to them you open up a dialouge that works two ways. If you think he's doing a bad job, tell him away from ears, do not belittle or embarrass him, if he cares about his work he will try hard to prove you wrong.

 

[JimmyM]

Geez, I'd never tell a soundman he's doing a bad job! Either in front of people or in private! The most I'll do is say, "Hey, can we work on the sound just a little bit here?"

Our drummer OTOH, has zero problem with it. Sometimes I need to leave the room. Almost cost us a regular gig once, too.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I'm running a DI so that if your rig cuts out I still have signal. I could list 40 other reasons why MOST of the time a DI is better

Do you also tell the guitarist he must run a DI "in case his rig cuts out"?

Is a guitarist (regardless of whether or not he has crap gear) ever told "You just give me a send straight from your guitar, I'll get the 'right/correct/good' sound back here"?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Geez, I'd never tell a soundman he's doing a bad job! Either in front of people or in private! The most I'll do is say, "Hey, can we work on the sound just a little bit here?"

Our drummer OTOH, has zero problem with it. Sometimes I need to leave the room. Almost cost us a regular gig once, too.

LOL well Jimmy some people have to be told or they will live in the belief of what they do is good and continue to do it. He may not like it but that's his problem not mine.

 

[Audiophage]

I tend to agree with Marcus here, but I think I'm a little more laid back. If a sound guy puts up a big fuss about me wanting to be miked rather than DI, whatever, I'm just not playing their club again. However, it is my responsibility to get the sound that I want in order to make my bands achieve their desired collective sounds. Obviously, this involves good communication between the band and the sound person, and everyone to know what their is and is not.

 

[coreyfyfe]

I'm going to throw a question into this, mostly aimed at Jimmy because he has experience with the PR40, but also for all of you guys with FOH experience. I use a lot of effects in my signal chain, and typically use a countryman type85 off of my V4 to give the house. The issue I've been encountering, is that the combination of my overdrive/distortion effects with tweeter-less cab tames them, but taking the pre-cab signal from the head results in a ton feed back if I get too close to the monitors.

I've been doing what I can to counter-act the problem, turning down the OD, adjusting my overall EQ, etc, but I've been considering getting a Heil PR40 to mic my cab.

Pretty much it's come down to:
It is going to be worth it?

Will most soundguys be put off by the mic and just say go DI
(especially considering I play in an original rock band so our sets only range from 30-60 minutes depending on the gig)?

Would something like the Heil (or an RE20 which was also on my mind) just cause more noise by picking up everything else?