getting 'my sound' at gigs

[Marcus Willett]

For the bass player who is interested in improving the FOH mix,I suggest a wireless/long cord setup and then go FOH with the sound engineer during sound-check to hear what he hears....All rooms are different so your "sound" may need to be e.q'd to fit the room. If you're FOH w/ the soundguy, your suggestions would be based on what the best band mix is, not just on your "sound".

Agree completely.

Just ask the guitarist to do the same

EDIT: Just as with a guitar, we should START with my sound and tweak THAT for the room. Not start with something that is not my sound and never will be to begin with.

 

[two fingers]

All I can add to this (and I think it's already been said) is that the tone you get in your bedroom probably WON'T sit well in a mix. So you need to be ready to cave a little. Also, read up on the specs of a mic before you buy it. Make sure it is designed to handle low frequencies. And also make sure it's not so sensitive that it will pick up your drummers kick or snare from 10 feet away. Best of luck!

 

[Marcus Willett]

the tone you get in your bedroom probably WON'T sit well in a mix. So you need to be ready to cave a little.

Also agreed. All I can add to this is to submit that this phenomenon is not unique to bass; it's true of all instruments and everyone has to compromise a bit, not the guitarist getting whatever he needs to get his sound and the bassist being told he's gotta give up everything in his signal chain after the bass itself.

A little more uniformity, that's all I'm sayin'....

 

[JimmyM]

All I can add to this (and I think it's already been said) is that the tone you get in your bedroom probably WON'T sit well in a mix. So you need to be ready to cave a little. Also, read up on the specs of a mic before you buy it. Make sure it is designed to handle low frequencies. And also make sure it's not so sensitive that it will pick up your drummers kick or snare from 10 feet away. Best of luck!

What if you don't like those low frequencies? Part of the reason I use an old SVT/810 now is that I don't like that much low end. Part of the reason I used to love a 58 is because of its rolloff. And when you show up to a gig with a highly directional mic that does 20 hz and is flat from 40 hz on as I do, I see no reason to question it, as a handful of soundmen do.

Nothing is absolute. The DI is not absolutely the best way to do it, and the mic is not absolutely the best way to do it. And those with strong opinions one way or the other should not be denied one way or the other. Again, you can say I'm a jerk, but on my gigs, I am not afraid to pull rank if I have to. I don't like it, but I will. And I'm sorry, but my needs come first.

 

[fokof]

I really hate to say this, but if you no longer care about how instruments sound (their primary and really only function is to create sound), then you should not be a musician in the first place.

It makes as much sense as a professional chef saying he no longer cares what the food he creates tastes like.

Just IMO of course, but if you've stopped caring, don't do it.

You really didn't get my point.

I do think that I have a really good bass sound. I'm really proud of my sound and I am very Anal about it. That sound is at the 1/4" out of my bass. Not through whatever monitor/amp I'm using that night.
So each time I plug in a DI , I know that I'm giving the Soundman the best bass sound I can give.

Now what happens after that ; I stopped arguing about "THE BAND'S OVERALL SOUND" with the soundmans a couple of years ago.
The people who pays the band to play are the same who pays the soundman when we don't bring ours, If the band sounds ****** , not my problem , they can't come and blame us , we do our job right , we all are good sounding instrumentists.

Hope it's clearer......

You must either play in always very nice venues with always good tech or be very stressed out when you play !
That's what it's doin to me anyways when I have to "confront" a soundman when I play bass.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I do think that I have a really good bass sound. I'm really proud of my sound and I am very Anal about it. That sound is at the 1/4" out of my bass.

Cool, mine's in front of my speakers. I like my sound too.

You must either play in always very nice venues with always good tech od be very stressed out when you play

Not at all, most people think I look bored

I just know what I want, and it's not the sound of my or any instrument straight to a DI, simple as that. If I were a guitarist, no one would have a problem that statement.

 

[JimmyM]

You really didn't get my point.

I do think that I have a really good bass sound. I'm really proud of my sound and I am very Anal about it. That sound is at the 1/4" out of my bass. Not through whatever monitor/amp I'm using that night.
So each time I plug in a DI , I know that I'm giving the Soundman the best bass sound I can give.

That's great. That's also very far from my ideal. Why should I have to suffer if that's not my ideal?

 

[modulusman]

What if you don't like those low frequencies? Part of the reason I use an old SVT/810 now is that I don't like that much low end. Part of the reason I used to love a 58 is because of its rolloff. And when you show up to a gig with a highly directional mic that does 20 hz and is flat from 40 hz on as I do, I see no reason to question it, as a handful of soundmen do.

Nothing is absolute. The DI is not absolutely the best way to do it, and the mic is not absolutely the best way to do it. And those with strong opinions one way or the other should not be denied one way or the other. Again, you can say I'm a jerk, but on my gigs, I am not afraid to pull rank if I have to. I don't like it, but I will. And I'm sorry, but my needs come first.

If you want your bass to cut through the mix you need to cut the lows and boost the mids. Alot of guys get what they think is a great sound in their bedroom. Usually the mids are scooped. When they try to use the same settings at a gig they get mud or the bass is lost in the mix. I never use the same EQ settings live as I do in my practice room. Sometimes when I get the bass amp to sit in the mix the tone can sound kind of harsh when the bass is played by itself. Add in the whole band and suddenly it sounds great.

 

[JimmyM]

If you want your bass to cut through the mix you need to cut the lows and boost the mids.

What do you do if you DON'T want to cut through the mix? What if you just want a big ball of mush and that's your sound? Believe it or not, there are players out there who want exactly that. There was a period where all I wanted was good response from 125-200 hz and didn't care about anything else.

That's the thing about this whole discussion...soundmen making value judgments on the tones people get, and rather than respecting their "art," they're imposing their will. Like one time I did a gig on this cruise ship, and the guitarist went out and listened, and he told me my bass was all brightness and had nothing on the low end. So I asked the soundman about it, and he said, "I play bass and that's how I like it to sound, and that's how most bassists on here like their bass, and they don't want that low end" I said to him, "Well I'm one who does, so what I do is..." and I told him how I get my sound. And to his credit, he did exactly what I wanted, and it was great, nobody copped an attitude, and the guy learned a little something about mixing bass old school. Win win all around. Had I not said something, the sound on the shows would have sucked, and the 400 people who paid $600 extra to see our entertainment would have gotten ripped off.

 

[modulusman]

What do you do if you DON'T want to cut through the mix? What if you just want a big ball of mush and that's your sound? Believe it or not, there are players out there who want exactly that. There was a period where all I wanted was good response from 125-200 hz and didn't care about anything else.

That's the thing about this whole discussion...soundmen making value judgments on the tones people get, and rather than respecting their "art," they're imposing their will. Like one time I did a gig on this cruise ship, and the guitarist went out and listened, and he told me my bass was all brightness and had nothing on the low end. So I asked the soundman about it, and he said, "I play bass and that's how I like it to sound, and that's how most bassists on here like their bass, and they don't want that low end" I said to him, "Well I'm one who does, so what I do is..." and I told him how I get my sound. And to his credit, he did exactly what I wanted, and it was great, nobody copped an attitude, and the guy learned a little something about mixing bass old school. Win win all around. Had I not said something, the sound on the shows would have sucked, and the 400 people who paid $600 extra to see our entertainment would have gotten ripped off.

IN your opinion the sound would of sucked. you just said the guy was a bass player and he had you in the mix the way HE liked it. It is all a matter of taste. For all you know maybe most of the 400 people might have liked his way better. Just saying.

 

[JimmyM]

IN your opinion the sound would of sucked. you just said the guy was a bass player and he had you in the mix the way HE liked it. It is all a matter of taste. For all you know maybe most of the 400 people might have liked his way better. Just saying.

Yeah, and then you woke up I'm sure the audience didn't want me to sound like a $40 boombox with a big tweeter. -I- decide what it sounds like based on the needs of my band, not the soundman. If it's not my gig and the bandleader wants me to sound another way, that's his/her decision and I will accomodate as much as I can. But the soundman's job is to take my sound and put it into a cohesive mix with the rest of the band. If he needs to make an EQ tweak to make -my- sound work with the mix, so be it. But it isn't the soundman's job to step all over what I want and mix us in a way diametrically opposed to what we want. And as of yet, I've not heard a convincing argument otherwise. Sorry, but "I'm the soundman and don't tell me how to do my job" isn't cutting it with me. I'm not telling you how to do your job. I'm telling you how to do OUR job. And on my gigs, arguing with me is only going to cost you money in the future.

 

[Marcus Willett]

IN your opinion the sound would of sucked. you just said the guy was a bass player and he had you in the mix the way HE liked it. It is all a matter of taste. For all you know maybe most of the 400 people might have liked his way better. Just saying.

That's kinda the point. It's not the soundmans' call to decide what my sound is. Ever. That is not his function; he is not the producer. His function is to take my sound and do whatever is needed to do to make my sound work in that room. His function is not, nor is it ever to decide what that sound should be to start with.

It's simply not his call to make, and that is the fundamental disconnect in all of this...it is not within the purview of the soundman to decide what my sound should be...his job is to take what he is given and make it work....that's his gig. Just like my gig is to take the chord changes I am given and make it work with the drummer I have to play the gig with. It may be tough at times, but that's the gig. It's not my call (unless I am the producer or writer) to decide "those changes or that groove doesn't work for this tune'." I can make suggestions, but that's all they are.

Everyone has their job and responsibilities. Deciding what my sound is, is not within the soundmans' purview, plain and simple...that is not his gig. I know there are MANY soundmen that like to think that is part of their gig....they are mistaken.



EDIT: Just a few days ago, I had to do a session with what (I thought) was a ridiculous melding of slap bass, acoustic guitar and some other stuff that I felt sounded like crap. Guess what? Not my call to make. I was not the producer on that gig. The actual producer told me what he wanted and the options were

1) give him what he wants and get paid or,
2) not give him what he wants and he will hire someone who will

Yes, I made suggestions. Ultimately, it was not my call...that was what he wanted. So, my gig was to give him what he wanted or walk.

I have no problem listening to and working with a soundman to make "it" work. But ultimately it's for me to decide what my sound is, not you. If my employer (whether a person or the paying masses) decide I was wrong, then the chips will fall where they may. Either way, not his call.

 

[JackANSI]

sometimes though a sound guy has to make changes to satisfy more than just his opinion. sometimes the room requires it.

 

[Marcus Willett]

sometimes the room requires it.

Absolutely. He must do what is needed to make my (and others') sound to work in that room. He does not get to decide what that sound is at its' genesis.

 

[JimmyM]

Again, Jack, if the room or the mix requires an EQ change from what's onstage, that's fine. But if you, for example, boost 10k because you don't think it sounds like Marcus Miller enough for your tastes when I've specifically said I don't want anything past 5k boosted, or if you want to run a DI line with my mic and turn my mic completely off without my OK, then we'll have to talk. EQ changes are necessary sometimes, but it should fit in with what the bass player's trying to do as he/she sees fit. And that means if the bassist comes in with a rig that sounds like a fart in a mudpuddle through a Samson mic, then make it sound like the best fart in a mudpuddle through a Samson mic you can possibly muster up from your years of experience.

Or try to offer some advice and some reasoning behind your wanting to do something else and possibly educate someone who doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing wrong with that...can't take advice, you're in the wrong business, right? As anal as I am, I'll still take advice from a soundman who talks to me with respect. But if they come back at you with a reason they like that sound and want it so desperately, then just deal with it as good as you can. If it's too loud for the PA, take it out and don't worry about it going through the PA (soundmen get a little too uptight about that sometimes). If it's too loud for the boss after you take it out, then tell the boss and he can fire them.

I really don't even see what there is to argue about on this point. The bands are what draws the people to the shows, not the soundman. Everyone should know their role in the grand scheme of things. When I'm hired by someone to play bass, I don't tell them I'm going to get a sound they don't like and they can eat it if they don't like it, or play something completely different than what they've told me they want me to play. I do what I'm told. That's my role. And the soundman's role is to make whatever band is onstage sound like the band that's onstage, not their idealized version of it. And for those who do multi-band shows at clubs where the clubowner is paying them, that doesn't mean you have carte blanche to do things diametrically opposed to their ways. They're the ones out there putting up flyers and Myspace notices and begging everyone they know to come see them. And they're the reason the soundman has a job. Without them, you don't have a job. Maybe instead of thinking they're idiots from jump, you should give them a chance.

 

[Marcus Willett]

the soundman's role is to make whatever band is onstage sound like the band that's onstage, not their idealized version of it.

EXCELLENT summary that precious few soundmen can accept.

 

[JimmyM]

EXCELLENT summary that precious few soundmen can accept.

Thank you, Marcus

I am ever so grateful that I have more soundmen these days willing to go along with whatever I want. Most of them have to, but some don't. But it seems the majority of soundmen I work with just get out of my way and let me do my thing. Like last week at our local HOB...stop me if you've heard this before...we were an opening act for the Pointer Sisters on a convention gig using their sound and we had a very short time to soundcheck, less than a half hour. We had our own soundman, but still, we were very pressed for time. Their bassist had a badass custom Jazz 5er and an SWR SM-900/Goliath 410 DI'd. I brought my beat up old SVT and my Heil PR 40 and told the house soundman I usually just mic it with no DI. Know what he said to me:

"Do you need a stand?"

The house soundman didn't say a word, nobody complained that I need a backup plan because my amp looks like a truck hit it, nothing. I got offstage at one point during our set, and our mix sounded like Jesus dipped in gold. That's what you call a pro sound crew. And those are guys that you go up to individually after the gig and thank them for getting what your band is about.

Anyway, I know I'm babbling on and on and on about this, but it just offends me to no end that there are actually soundmen think it's OK to mix me and my band any way they want to without the least little regard for what we're doing. And trust me...the bands you club soundmen work with think you're being jerky about it, too. They just don't say anything because they think you'll get them blacklisted from the club. And you probably would, too. But more often than not, I've got the power now, and I will get my revenge!!!



BTW, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm angry at anyone in this thread. I'm really not, though I think I might have said earlier that I might be I just see some comments that really sound like some soundmen don't respect the bands they work with at all. Why even bother doing it if that's the case? And why does the band need to prove to the soundman that they know what they're doing? Maybe they don't...so what? Try to help them if you can, and roll with it if you can't. Again, it's they who hang, not you. You'll get another band to run sound for. They won't get anything.

 

[modulusman]

Jimmy M, Marcus Willett, I agree that whoever is paying the check should have the final word in what the bass sounds like. I just thought it was funny that Jimmy M said that nobody in the audience would have liked it the way the soundman/bass player had it in the PA. They would have all went screaming for the exits. Just came across to me as "my way is right everyones elses is wrong" Everybody has their own opinion of what they want to sound like. That is why there are so many different basses and amps available. I play Modulus basses because I like the sound. Some people think they sound sterile. it is all a matter of opinion.

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy M, Marcus Willett, I agree that whoever is paying the check should have the final word in what the bass sounds like. I just thought it was funny that Jimmy M said that nobody in the audience would have liked it the way the soundman/bass player had it in the PA. They would have all went screaming for the exits. Just came across to me as "my way is right everyones elses is wrong"

Um, yeah, when it comes to my band, that's a dead-on assumption

 

[Marcus Willett]

Everybody has their own opinion of what they want to sound like. That is why there are so many different basses and amps available.

Agreed 100%. The interesting and ironic thing is that is exactly why the soundman must know his role. I'm interested in his input and knowledge, but his opinion of what constitutes a "good" bass tone does not concern me.

Just recently I was involved in something where the soundman/engineer was mixing. This guy knows his stuff, has good gear and in general does great work. He calls me to tell me he's finished the mixes.

"Man, the bass sounds great! I ran it through a plug-in and it just sounds fantastic, really makes the tunes!"

Sounds great. I get the mixes and I am horrified. It's the most God-awful clanky buzzy sound that I hate. Maybe if we were doing Rush covers it might fit...maybe. In this context I absolutely hated it. So much that I can't listen to it anymore. Thing is, he thought it sounded great and if this were a live situation the same thing would have occurred if I just plugged into a DI. He would make the bass sound the way he likes it.

"Maybe that's just how your bass sounds through a DI" some might say. Nope, got the mixes before the plug-in...when the bass was literally straight into a Countryman. Sounds fine. Not my favorite bass tone but acceptable. At least I have those mixes to listen to.

Fortunately, we've talked and resolved to make a greater effort to work together on tone with future projects.