getting 'my sound' at gigs

[basslinejam]

OK, so maybe you guys are top-notch pro bassists. I don't see many of those at my sound jobs. So when I say that I kind of "tell" them what they will use, you have to walk in my shoes for a bit. Most bassists are just weekend warriors who have only been playing for a few years. They have read JUST ENOUGH stuff on the internet to make them dangerous. So the confrontations I have had are usually the guy with a $200 bass and a 1-15 combo who wants "his sound" through a mic out front. You show up with a MTD 5 and an Aguilar stack and I'll throw a mic on it AND run a line out from your head (so I can blend them) so fast it'll make your head spin. Stereotype? Yes. I don't care. Plus, you guys stated that you don't do major volume jumps, and I'm sure your gear is reliable. I would tell you that in MOST cases, I take one look at your rig and I can tell you whether or not I'm running a DI. If your gear looks like it has been drug behind a truck, I'm running a DI so that if your rig cuts out I still have signal. I could list 40 other reasons why MOST of the time a DI is better. If you guys a pros and have great gear, congrats.

-1, Back in my touring days I used to unpack an 8 space rack with a SWR Grand Prix, Rane Para EQ, DBX 160 and an SWR stereo 800 and I usually had to deal with sound men virtually rolling their eyes that a bass player would need such a set up. Later, I went econo so some of that could go into our band PA and brought my 800RB and had the opposite reaction. Sound men saw the vintage jazz bass and 800RB and treated me like a seasoned pro... go figure.

As a preemptive response, having done some FOH myself, I must say I partly understand the reaction: too much stuff to go wrong in a rack like I had...

 

[JimmyM]

I'm going to throw a question into this, mostly aimed at Jimmy because he has experience with the PR40, but also for all of you guys with FOH experience. I use a lot of effects in my signal chain, and typically use a countryman type85 off of my V4 to give the house. The issue I've been encountering, is that the combination of my overdrive/distortion effects with tweeter-less cab tames them, but taking the pre-cab signal from the head results in a ton feed back if I get too close to the monitors.

I've been doing what I can to counter-act the problem, turning down the OD, adjusting my overall EQ, etc, but I've been considering getting a Heil PR40 to mic my cab.

Pretty much it's come down to:
It is going to be worth it?

Will most soundguys be put off by the mic and just say go DI
(especially considering I play in an original rock band so our sets only range from 30-60 minutes depending on the gig)?

Would something like the Heil (or an RE20 which was also on my mind) just cause more noise by picking up everything else?

Only you can decide if it's worth it, Corey. About 90% of soundmen I work with love it that I show up with a mic that's not a 58, the other 10% get all antsy about it. I don't care...I use it anyway, though I'm doing gigs where I'm usually the headliner or the headliner's bass player and it's real easy for me not to care. I think if you inform the soundman in advance that you use a mic and let him know that you're not some FOS yutz who just got a bass yesterday, you shouldn't have a problem in most venues. Funny thing is...I'm getting a Type 85 because I'm getting more and more drawn to that speaker DI sound

As for noise rejection, I've yet to have a problem with it. The Heil mics are VERY directional and are end firing, so I'm sure it picks up a little, but nobody ever complains about it.

BTW, I don't think it's the soundman's call under any circumstances to try and second guess the band. I often show up with an SVT that looks like it was dragged behind a truck, but it was just fully serviced and works like a dream. And if you even so much as insinuate that you don't think it's reliable enough for you, then you better be prepared never to work with me again Yeah, I'm a jerk, but it's my gig, not yours, and it's my call. And if it does go down, you can laugh at me after the set. But it's my set, not yours, and it's fully on me if it craps out, not you.

Also, the level of professionalism or experience shouldn't enter into it. Yeah, if you're a newbie, you shouldn't do stupid things like ignore the soundman's good advice when you turn up way too loud or have a crappy tone that's not working. But if a bassist is putting out a signal you don't like and insists on ignoring your advice, let him hang. Sometimes they hang. And sometimes you might be surprised how well it works, and you may even learn something. The advice thing goes both ways. You think you're too good to learn from a band? I don't think so.

To be honest, I'm very disappointed in the attitudes of soundmen in this and other like threads. It's almost as if you tell bands that your word is law and you dare not question it. As much as I respect soundmen, their job is to SUPPORT the act onstage, not tell them how they're supposed to sound. If you see someone screwing up, especially a newbie, it's fine to suggest a better way of doing things. But if they reject it, hey, they're the one who takes the heat for it, not you. You just move onto the next band in line, and they never get invited back again. If they bring an amp that you don't like and they want a mic on it, who cares? Throw a damn mic on it. If they bring their own DI or they want to use the DI in their head and you don't like it, so what? You can't work with another DI or a mic? Way too many times, soundmen act like the only reason the band is there is so the soundman can show off his nifty PA. Wrong. The band is the reason you have a job, unless of course all you do is play CD's. How about a little less dictatorship and a little more respect?

 

[coreyfyfe]

Only you can decide if it's worth it, Corey. About 90% of soundmen I work with love it that I show up with a mic that's not a 58, the other 10% get all antsy about it.

Yeah, I'm really just trying to figure out if I'll get some use out of it or if this is just GAS. I'd love to keep it around for recording, I've always used a borrowed RE20 but I don't think they'll be available for future projects so it would be good to have something of my own.

Funny thing is...I'm getting a Type 85 because I'm getting more and more drawn to that speaker DI sound

The issue I'm having with the type85 is the high end. It helps because the loops that I run are audible, but it also carries over all the top end from my overdrive, which just sounds better through my cab.

As for noise rejection, I've yet to have a problem with it. The Heil mics are VERY directional and are end firing, so I'm sure it picks up a little, but nobody ever complains about it.

Good to hear.

 

[JackANSI]

BTW, I don't think it's the soundman's call under any circumstances to try and second guess the band. I often show up with an SVT that looks like it was dragged behind a truck, but it was just fully serviced and works like a dream. And if you even so much as insinuate that you don't think it's reliable enough for you, then you better be prepared never to work with me again Yeah, I'm a jerk, but it's my gig, not yours, and it's my call. And if it does go down, you can laugh at me after the set. But it's my set, not yours, and it's fully on me if it craps out, not you.

...How about a little less dictatorship and a little more respect?

If your rig does go down and your bands management comes at the soundguy royally pissed and rips into him about the bass dropping out, are you going to suck it up and tell your management to back off his ass about it, you told him to use the mic and your rig cut out? I mean really, would you? Would you go to bat for him when his boss comes down on him too?


A door sometimes swings both ways. Most soundguys have seen what would be a lifetime of issues for a musician, usually in the first year or two.


Edit: When I run sound, its cover my ass first. I need reliable signals at all times. If I consider my ass covered than so is yours as far as the PA, your band WILL sound good. I can pull off miracles as long as I have the audio sources to work with.

 

[TL5]

Just as another thought. CMA Music Fest was last weekend here in Nashville.
A good friend of mine played six times (three times on the Grand Ole Opry) during the weekend.

On one of those big stages the 'back line was provided' He walked on stage with his guitar, pedals, and a cable. The amp was already there and the one he was expected to use. It was unlike anything he typically uses. After that show was over, he called me to ask how it sounded (which was still great btw). This is a pro level gig, hosted by one of the country music video TV channels available all over the USA.

So the question is, especially for those who are very picky; How would you get "your sound" in that environment?

 

[JimmyM]

If your rig does go down and your bands management comes at the soundguy royally pissed and rips into him about the bass dropping out, are you going to suck it up and tell your management to back off his ass about it, you told him to use the mic and your rig cut out? I mean really, would you? Would you go to bat for him when his boss comes down on him too?

A door sometimes swings both ways. Most soundguys have seen what would be a lifetime of issues for a musician, usually in the first year or two.

Edit: When I run sound, its cover my ass first. I need reliable signals at all times. If I consider my ass covered than so is yours as far as the PA, your band WILL sound good. I can pull off miracles as long as I have the audio sources to work with.

Any band manager who would yell at you for a player's amp dropping out needs a beer bottle to the top of the cranium.

But Marcus brought up a good point that everyone ignored...what do you do with guitarists and keyboardists? Do you make the guitarist plug into a DI? Do you make the keyboardist use an amp? Do you bring spare instruments for everyone? Why is the bass player the only one up there who needs a backup plan?

 

[JimmyM]

Just as another thought. CMA Music Fest was last weekend here in Nashville.
A good friend of mine played six times (three times on the Grand Ole Opry) during the weekend.

On one of those big stages the 'back line was provided' He walked on stage with his guitar, pedals, and a cable. The amp was already there and the one he was expected to use. It was unlike anything he typically uses. After that show was over, he called me to ask how it sounded (which was still great btw). This is a pro level gig, hosted by one of the country music video TV channels available all over the USA.

So the question is, especially for those who are very picky; How would you get "your sound" in that environment?

I have to do it all the time because I often fly to gigs. How do I do it? I just do. There are times to be picky, and there are times you just have to go with the flow...and take along a VT Bass pedal

 

[Marcus Willett]

If your rig does go down and your bands management comes at the soundguy royally pissed and rips into him about the bass dropping out

Good point; I can only assume you insist the guitarist do the same (straight to DI, so you have a sourse independent of his rig) since it would be even more noticeable to the average listener if the guitarists rig goes down right? Also, bass is easier to "cover" if it disappears than guitar making it even more important this standard/safeguard is applied to guitar.

So the question is, especially for those who are very picky; How would you get "your sound" in that environment?

How about the exact same way a guitarist never seems to have a problem doing...?

 

[Marcus Willett]

Why is the bass player the only one up there who needs a backup plan?

I have been doing this for a while and I have never once heard a decent answer to that question. It's the way it is because bassists put up with it. You're just the bass player, jeez....it's not like your sound really matters in the grand scheme of things...guitarists must get "their sound". Bassists? Jeez....quit making things difficult and just shut up and plug into this DI so I can completely negate however many thousands of dollars and hours you've put into crafting your sound and replace it with what I think it should be...jeez.

Damn bass players always causing problems...

 

[JimmyM]

I have been doing this for a while and I have never once heard a decent answer to that question. It's the way it is because bassists put up with it. You're just the bass player, jeez....it's not like your sound really matters in the grand scheme of things...guitarists must get "their sound". Bassists? Jeez....quit making things difficult and just shut up and plug into this DI so I can completely negate however many thousands of dollars and hours you've put into crafting your sound and replace it with what I think it should be...jeez.

Damn bass players always causing problems...

Ya, our drummer tried doing that with me once...spends an hour fussing over his drums, then gives me crap if I spend longer than a minute. Happened just once, though. It don't happen anymore

 

[Marcus Willett]

spends an hour fussing over his drums, then gives me crap if I spend longer than a minute.

I've been saying this for years...there is a very real bias against bassists in terms of how much what they do matters.

Every other instrument is given a fair amount of latitude to get "their" sound, drums are a great example. Sound men love to work on drums because getting the killer drum sound is a bit of a trophy. No one really cares what you do with the bass...a precious few do, but the vast majority find it to be a necessary evil that needs to be dealt with so let's just get it over.

A good soundman knows that for the kick and the bass to get along, both sound good and not step all over each other; a "hole" needs to be created sonically (unless you want to pan things) to create a sonic space for each other. You can for example make a "hole" in the kick EQ and concentrate the bass there via EQ, making both full and audible.

Usually what happens is the soundman will spend...really however much time it takes....doing the drums first; getting the killer sound. By this point a lot of sonic space is eaten up and other instruments will have a hard time, but if we're talking about vocals or guitar...well they must be heard clearly so whatever effort it takes will be made.

Bass? You're just making my killer drum sound muddy. Hence the oft-times scooped bass tone that's all click....problem solved; it's out of the way. No one is going to miss bass anyway but they damn sure will miss the killer drums.

Please bear in mind, I know there are great soundmen out there..I have worked with some that truly care about everything, and are not looking to just do it the easy way, and actually care about each musicians' voice...but they are few and far between....unfortunately.

 

[AndyLES]

Do you also tell the guitarist he must run a DI "in case his rig cuts out"?

Is a guitarist (regardless of whether or not he has crap gear) ever told "You just give me a send straight from your guitar, I'll get the 'right/correct/good' sound back here"?

Actually, there indeed HAVE been moments where, when running sound, I have asked guitarists with ****** rigs to run direct.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Actually, there indeed HAVE been moments where, when running sound, I have asked guitarists with ****** rigs to run direct.

People win the lottery too, but how often does that happen?

 

[AndyLES]

If your rig does go down and your bands management comes at the soundguy royally pissed and rips into him about the bass dropping out, are you going to suck it up and tell your management to back off his ass about it, you told him to use the mic and your rig cut out? I mean really, would you? Would you go to bat for him when his boss comes down on him too?


A door sometimes swings both ways. Most soundguys have seen what would be a lifetime of issues for a musician, usually in the first year or two.


Edit: When I run sound, its cover my ass first. I need reliable signals at all times. If I consider my ass covered than so is yours as far as the PA, your band WILL sound good. I can pull off miracles as long as I have the audio sources to work with.

QFMFT. +10000

When I run sound, I ALWAYS catch the grief when the band sounds bad of ITS own accord.

I once had a club owner yell at me when the guitarist went out of tune.

 

[AndyLES]

I've been saying this for years...there is a very real bias against bassists in terms of how much what they do matters.

Every other instrument is given a fair amount of latitude to get "their" sound, drums are a great example. Sound men love to work on drums because getting the killer drum sound is a bit of a trophy. No one really cares what you do with the bass...a precious few do, but the vast majority find it to be a necessary evil that needs to be dealt with so let's just get it over.

Unfortunately (as someone who runs sound, plays bass, AND plays guitar) this is true. The explosive drum sound is the calling card for many a soundman.

THAT said, when dealing with a difficult mix, the (in order) Lead Vocal (because people wanna sing along to the lyrics), Kick drum (because people wanna feel the beat so they can dance), and guitar (because people need to hear the pitch/melodic "hook" element) are the priorities. Afterwards, I can worry about the other stuff.

BTW, and I don't mean this to sound defensive, but I think that every musician should do sound at least a few times in their careers. It's often an eye opening perspective.

 

[AndyLES]

Any band manager who would yell at you for a player's amp dropping out needs a beer bottle to the top of the cranium.

...but you don't, because they can easily get you fired and blacklisted.

But Marcus brought up a good point that everyone ignored...what do you do with guitarists and keyboardists? Do you make the guitarist plug into a DI? Do you make the keyboardist use an amp? Do you bring spare instruments for everyone? Why is the bass player the only one up there who needs a backup plan?

Like I said in one of my last posts, there have been times when a guitarist/keyboardist/whateverist has shown up with a very subpar rig, and I have indeed had to run DI lines for them too. Sometimes, if they have a spare OD/distortion pedal, I'll even insert it into the console channel.

Then again, I have a reputation for being somewhat of a mad scientist behind the console.

 

[JackANSI]

I've got plenty of stories about guitarists and some really strange requests when it comes to FOH. I've had a guitarist insist on using this beat up SM57 that, when I plugged it in, didn't make that satisfying 'click'. The guitarist almost flipped when I came at the connection with gaffers tape (on a mic so beat up, it would have taken a few hours with a sander and paint to just make it look good enough you could get a buck or two for it).

So I went to the bag of tricks and got out the dual podium clip, and hung one of my own SM57's beside his. Moments before their first song the guitarist unplugged my SM57. No big deal to me, still got signal on his, but after an hour that changed. The connection had worked back out like I thought it would. I got my man running monitors to get it hooked back up quickly. But had the diva just let me do my thing, there would have been little if any time his part in the mix was empty.

Stuff like that happens enough that you start to roll your eyes when idiots like that come along.

But...

Due to the frequency a guitar works in, a mic to the amp is actually one of the better ways to reproduce it (reduces a lot of the unwanted and nasty sounding harmonics and resonances with distortion effects). Its not because the bassist is any less important than he gets a DI, its more to due with a DI having better low end response, really down low. When you start getting high frequencies involved with a bass (like with distortion type effects) then a mic starts to sound better there too.

With keyboards, unless its something special like an analog synth (which 3/5 times won't have a DI and some even have built in mics that work very well) or a couple of rotary speakers (which are their own nightmare to mic right), the tone is exactly what it should be when it leaves the DI. Thats why modern keyboard amps really strive to be as flat as possible and as faithful to the input signal as possible.

You can treat all instruments the same and mic them. Just turns out that a DI is one of those ways that a bass usually sounds just fine through, and you've only got special instances where a mic is truly better. Unless you have expensive tastes in recording quality microphones, you can't get the same response as DI.

I don't know about you, but I'm not leaving $2000 worth of microphones on the stage for a band to disrespect unless I'm being covered for it. I've lost enough SM58's in the course of a year, I don't need any really good mics getting taking out by disrespectful a-holes. Its hard enough to get those paid for by the people who blatantly ruin them.

Part of the reason I gave that mess up. No one respects the equipment, the money involved, or the time getting your ear tuned.

 

[Marcus Willett]

there have been times when a guitarist/keyboardist/whateverist has shown up with a very subpar rig, and I have indeed had to run DI lines for them too

Emphasis mine...and exactly my point. The default setting for a guitarist is that he will use his rig to get his sound in the house because, well, it's his sound. Occasionally (there have been times) there will be an exception, but 99% of the time if a guitarist asks for a mic on a cab, he will get it. At the very least a send off his FX board.

The default setting for bass is it doesn't matter what your sound/rig is; it will be negated and replaced with what the soundman thinks it should be for the good of the mix as a whole. Occasionally you might get to mic your rig if you ask nice and get lucky.

Bass is disproportionately assumed to have to make this concession, guitar is the reverse; you're proving my point.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Just turns out that a DI is one of those ways that a bass usually sounds just fine through

Problem is that's an opinion (and a valid one) presented almost as though it is an inarguable fact.

With the exception of a P bass with flats (where I share the opinion that it sounds just fine with a DI); I don't like the sound of bass straight to a DI. Any DI, any bass, doesn't matter, I don't dig it. That's an equally valid opinion that is too often dismissed as just being wrong/difficult/ignorant.

As for the frequency response, a DI can impart certain positive characteristics, but so can a mic. An upright bassist will often prefer a mic because he doesn't want to use a pickup to a DI.

Of course, that's an acoustic instrument...my bass is electric.

Right, so is the amp I selected that powers the cabs I selected. It's not an acoustic instrument, it's part of a chain. All links need to be present for the chain to work the way I want it to.

 

[Stumbo]

IME as a "sound guy", the lower frequencies seem to react more to the resonances of the room and are easier to get lost FOH. Especially in a room full of echos, I usually set my tone with a bit less bass and a bit more treble to help cut through, depending on the use of a PA or not.

For the bass player who is interested in improving the FOH mix,I suggest a wireless/long cord setup and then go FOH with the sound engineer during sound-check to hear what he hears.

All rooms are different so your "sound" may need to be e.q'd to fit the room. If you're FOH w/ the soundguy, your suggestions would be based on what the best band mix is, not just on your "sound".

Also, where you are standing in the room may affect the mix at that position as well, necessitating tweaks in the e.q.,,possibly changing the position of the bass rig and/or isolating it from the stage floor.

Even then, when the venue fills up, the volume/e.q. may need to change, depending on the FOH mix.

My .02