Ghost Builders - The True Story?

[BusyFingers]

If we could edit out all the whining, it would be even more interesting But then again, some of the whiny posts did amuse me. Some...not all.

I haven't read everything. All I know is I never was a fan of Ed Roman, though I guess I must concede the guy had some skilled builders working for him.

 

[BusyFingers]

There doesn't seem to be a great love or even respect for the late Ed Roman on the board, but I considered him a friend - even though we never did any real business together. I showed Ed the first PRS he ever saw, in 1977 which was my first PRS bass, #7. I always giggled when I got that annual call from Ed trying to coerce me into selling it to him. And yes, he was offering REAL money, even back then. Ed was a loud-mouthed, self-serving madman: coarse, crude, rude - a highly opinionated "know it all" - and that is exactly what I loved about him. Does that completely kill his credibility? Perhaps.

Ed had a pretty notorious reputation as a "ghost builder" for many different companies, including Gibson, Kramer, Steinberger and a laundry list of others. He had a true disdain for most of the big guitar companies and I think he got a vicarious thrill out of duplicating their instruments. He also pulled back the curtain and exposed many others doing the same thing. It's a pretty long read to post the entire Roman Ghost Building "rant" here, but it's worth checking out if the subject is of interest. It used to be almost twice as long, but over the years he had so many lawsuits threatened that he had to take parts of it down. It shrunk accordingly.

Rants - Ghost Builders - Ed Roman Guitars

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I really wasn't sure about Ed Roman, as he is pretty notorious among guitarists.

That being said, I guess he had some skilled luthiers on staff for the bigger names that went to him.

 

[GIBrat51]

Sure we will. We Luthiers will build for whoever has the money. And our prices are about the same, whether you are a private player, a rock star, or a guitar company. A complete custom instrument, with paint and all, starts at around $2500 and goes up to $5000 or more, depending on how much extra R & D fancy work is needed. That's what it costs in labor and materials.

When a guitar company hires us to build up a complete near-replica of one of their standard models, it's usually a couple thousand bucks. Even though their standard model may only cost them a few hundred. That's because they have a million dollar factory that turns out a thousand guitars a month. But it might cost them twenty thousand in tooling and production delays to make one oddball. And any custom job that they do in-house is going to be at a much higher composite hourly rate than we charge. So they hire the little Luthier shop down the street. Like I said, it's just business.

I hope I didn't offend you, Bruce - or any other luthiers, either. It was an attempt at humor, in reference to the "Guitar for the Star" references in the OP's original post. 'Cause, I'm very obviously not a Star... Seems to have missed the mark, evidently... But, I have to say, though, that in some of my attempts to have something made, more than one luthier - and Custom Shop - has lost interest very quickly when the words "Left-handed" got uttered. Regardless of whether or not I had the money (which I do, by the way). So, I'd have to disagree with you regarding "whoever" - just a little...

 

[JimmyM]

I hope I didn't offend you, Bruce - or any other luthiers, either. It was an attempt at humor, in reference to the "Guitar for the Star" references in the OP's original post. 'Cause, I'm very obviously not a Star... Seems to have missed the mark, evidently... But, I have to say, though, that in some of my attempts to have something made, more than one luthier has lost interest very quickly when the words "Left-handed" got uttered. So, I'd have to disagree with you regarding "whoever" - just a little...

Ya, good point. Some do balk at lefties. But many don't.

 

[Jared Lash]

Really interesting stuff.

On the one hand I don’t really see it as shady - Fender has its own custom shop with individual builders. Is it all that different to contract out to an outside luthier?

But to claim that an artist’s mass produced signature model is exactly what they play when theirs is made by an outside luthier? That’s an outright lie.

By the way, there's also a lot of this nefarious subcontracting stuff going on in the small boutique builders' world. That's one of my specialties. About 2/3 of my business is custom work for other pro Luthiers. I build neck structures, truss rods, and all kinds of custom hardware for them, as well as custom tooling and fixtures. Some of my clients give me public credit, but most don't. Which is okay, as long as I get paid. That's why I'm so slow completing my own model basses! It's a small community, and most of us have known each other for years. We'll do joint projects, or pass some jobs to whoever has the specialty experience.

I know Chris Stambaugh gave you credit for the bridge on his recreation/version of the Ampeg bass. I dig these sorts of collaborations. And he’s always been upfront about outsourcing gloss finishes.

Many builders are similarly transparent. But a lot of builders blur the lines. They have branded pickups made by someone else and outside built necks and/or bodies. There’s nothing wrong with that, and some such builders make absolutely killer basses but between that and “ghostbuilding” it does bring up the question of what it really means to have your name or logo on the headstock.

 

[JimmyM]

Many builders are similarly transparent. But a lot of builders blur the lines. They have branded pickups made by someone else and outside built necks and/or bodies. There’s nothing wrong with that, and some such builders make absolutely killer basses but between that and “ghostbuilding” it does bring up the question of what it really means to have your name or logo on the headstock.

Yeah, but how many people really care about that? Would it make a difference in how you felt about Stambaughs if you didn't know about who does his finishes then found out he sources them out by accident? Personally, I couldn't care less as long as the price I paid was commensurate with the workmanship. I'd figure that he thought the painter he goes to could do a better job. That's doing me a favor...that's how I look at it.

 

[Jared Lash]

Yeah, but how many people really care about that? Would it make a difference in how you felt about Stambaughs if you didn't know about who does his finishes then found out he sources them out by accident? Personally, I couldn't care less as long as the price I paid was commensurate with the workmanship. I'd figure that he thought the painter he goes to could do a better job. That's doing me a favor...that's how I look at it.

No, it wouldn’t fundamentally change anything for me. I just find this stuff interesting.

But honestly, yeah I do prefer the transparency. Just nice to know. At least for me.

 

[BusyFingers]

So this begs the question: Those Fender Custom Shop dogs we've all heard about. Were they from Fender's custom shop, or some other builder?

 

[delta7fred]

Yes, a very interesting thread.

A few years ago, before reading about ghost builders on TB, I had just taken it for granted that if it says Gibson on the headstock of Slash's guitar then it came out of the Gibson factory.

I now discover this is not so and the advice of "never assume" (that I was given often by one of the old engineers when I was an apprentice) is as valid today as it was all those years ago.

 

[Axstar]

You know, I meant to reply to your earlier post just to tell you how much I enjoy reading your input here on the forum. You have a very eloquent, but efficient use of words for seemingly everything you write. Every word seems well thought out and I usually agree with what you're saying. Just thought I'd let you know.

Many thanks, I appreciate it!