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Gibson's quality control: has the mojo gone?

"Mojo" is exactly what Gibson are riding on. That fuzzy garter-sock notion that Gibson got it right in 1959 and are still getting it right now. If absolutely nothing else the inconsistent QC at Gibson these days is at least shedding a more favourable light on Norlin-era instruments.

A few months ago I played a poop-brown Norlin-era ES-355. Gibson, by this point in time, had taken it upon themselves to re-shape the body and pickguard, and add a coil tap switch to the ES-355 design. The pickups were probably 'tarbacks' or a similarly undesirable '70s model, though I wasn't in a position to check. The guitar was very much a child of the '70s, post 1973 Oil Crisis. There was a subtle shonkiness going on, but it was still a nice guitar that sounded wonderful. The Norlin-era Gibson guitars aren't the best made, and the corner-cutting is sometimes pretty obvious, but Gibson were still of the mentality that they were building musical instruments for musicians to play. Yeah the router templates were worn out and a whole screed of 'close enough' was hidden by black 'goof hider' rings and covers. Yeah they let anybody have a stab at spraying a sunburst body, which results in some hideously asymmetric bursts on '70s Les Pauls... but they are still perfectly good musical instruments!

Of the 2016/17 Les Pauls and ES-355s I've tried, they've been consistently characterless, charmless and joyless instruments. Frets that have been crowned and then leveled, leaving the frets with flat tops drizzled with tooling marks. I've sen astonishingly inconsistently applied binding nibs over the frets. That dreadful brass zero fret nut arrangement. The frankly spooky hologram of Les Paul watching you pee. Orange peel, poor masking and poor inlay work. A horrible level of inconsistency across examples of the same model. I saw two sunburst Thunderbird basses, and one had the bridge pickup riding out the body on the absolute maximum excursion of the mounting screws. This pickup freely bounced around on its mounting spring. Good for tremolo effects? The bridge was also stanced far off the body to get a good action. What went wrong here? Those robotic tuners on the guitars are a joke too. A device that utilises six servo motors simply to put your guitar further out of tune? Sign me up!

The best bit about new Gibsons is that vanilla smell.

And it isn't just the standard models either. I tried a historic/custom/whatever ES-175 reissue. There was a fuzz of router shavings all around the inside of the f-holes, and the thing played like a poorly setup, decrepit archtop acoustic that you might find in a highschool music department. It had two dull, muffled PAF copies attached, which looked like somebody had attacked the covers with steel wool in a low-effort bid to make them look antique. When I think of an ES-175 I think of that warm jazz tone. There isn't a lot of top end, but there is still a rich chime to the mids and a bass retention that is present without being woofy or sludgy. None of that going on with this ES-175, which was about £6 k or so in price.

Then there is the whole line of 'econo' models with the satin finish, no grain filler, no top coat, blah blah blah. The finish comes off on your jeans, the fretwork is hopeless, the pickups and electronics are hopeless. Half-finished guitars basically that look totally worn out after a year of use.
 
It's been gone for decades.

I owned a few Norlin era instruments that far surpass Henry era instruments by a long shot.


In the 70s when I bought my first Norlin era Gibson - a '76 Tbird, people bitched about how terrible Gibson basses were after Norlin bought them. :D Same Stuff, Different Day....

At any rte I would like to point out that not all Henry J era Gibson have bad QC as you say. My 2011 Thunderbird was perfect. And I've played others at stores that were great too.

My guitar player friend just bought a really nice Les Paul, beautiful flame maple top, perfect finish, plays great. But they installed the pickup switch backwards (toward the 'bridge' label gives neck and vice versa). I wouldn't call that a big issue though, it is much more easily fixed than a finish issue, but they do have spotty issues with QC.
 
That's why some people buy Epiphone basses...quality.

Maybe, maybe not. I support the concept, but I just bought (and quickly returned) a new Epi Embassy ‘Pro’ that was laughable in the QC department. And I’m not that fussy. I was really hoping to love this bass and jump on the bandwagon, but it was just a crappy, thrown together cheap bass. To be fair, at $399 it was very cheap. It also sucked :/
That said, the early reviews of the Thunderbird Vintage Pro are really great and I’d love to try one. I understand they aren’t made in the same factory. The VP T Bird looks a lot cooler than any new Gibson Bird for sure.

Gibson doesn't have any business making basses..IMO

Umm, ok. ‘60’s T Birds are as cool as it gets, IMO and even if they weren’t always successful, the 70’s era basses were really innovative.

I’m on both sides of the argument here.

My first two basses were Gibson’s. An early 70’s G3 and Ripper. Both amazing basses that spoke to me. I’ve owned many others as well. Some amazing stuff out there for what I like.

Gibson reissues in the past decade or so are a total miss for me. The main issue being that they look vaguely like the originals, but sound nothing like em. Tried a Grabber RI and laughed out loud. Tried a G3 RI and though I thought it was a nice sounding and playing bass, it sounded nothing like a G3 and looked kinda cheesy to me. The new RD appears to be the worst of the bunch. All the weight and bad ergonomics of the original and none of the sound.

(Back to the other side)

I love some of the Gibson’s I’ve had and would be heartbroken if they went under, which is very possible.

Last, I have a 2014 T Bird headed my way and yeah, I’m a little nervous.
 
Maybe, maybe not. I support the concept, but I just bought (and quickly returned) a new Epi Embassy ‘Pro’ that was laughable in the QC department. And I’m not that fussy. I was really hoping to love this bass and jump on the bandwagon, but it was just a crappy, thrown together cheap bass. To be fair, at $399 it was very cheap. It also sucked :/
That said, the early reviews of the Thunderbird Vintage Pro are really great and I’d love to try one. I understand they aren’t made in the same factory. The VP T Bird looks a lot cooler than any new Gibson Bird for sure.

That's interesting. Where was it made? All of my Epiphones and my best Squier were made in China, and those have all been great. The Indonesian Squiers I've bought have been a little more hit and miss though. I had to send back one of my Dimensions because of crack in the body and my Indonesian Squier Jazzmaster had a few QC issues when I first got it.
 
Quality control in any industry goes south when the company just sees spread sheets. When they lose sight of what it is they're actually making.

And when they convince themselves that people will always buy because of the name.
 
Maybe, maybe not. I support the concept, but I just bought (and quickly returned) a new Epi Embassy ‘Pro’ that was laughable in the QC department. And I’m not that fussy. I was really hoping to love this bass and jump on the bandwagon, but it was just a crappy, thrown together cheap bass. To be fair, at $399 it was very cheap. It also sucked :/
That said, the early reviews of the Thunderbird Vintage Pro are really great and I’d love to try one. I understand they aren’t made in the same factory. The VP T Bird looks a lot cooler than any new Gibson Bird for sure.



Umm, ok. ‘60’s T Birds are as cool as it gets, IMO and even if they weren’t always successful, the 70’s era basses were really innovative.

I’m on both sides of the argument here.

My first two basses were Gibson’s. An early 70’s G3 and Ripper. Both amazing basses that spoke to me. I’ve owned many others as well. Some amazing stuff out there for what I like.

Gibson reissues in the past decade or so are a total miss for me. The main issue being that they look vaguely like the originals, but sound nothing like em. Tried a Grabber RI and laughed out loud. Tried a G3 RI and though I thought it was a nice sounding and playing bass, it sounded nothing like a G3 and looked kinda cheesy to me. The new RD appears to be the worst of the bunch. All the weight and bad ergonomics of the original and none of the sound.

(Back to the other side)

I love some of the Gibson’s I’ve had and would be heartbroken if they went under, which is very possible.

Last, I have a 2014 T Bird headed my way and yeah, I’m a little nervous.
Sure, no company is perfect...people even have issues with Music Man and G&L once or twice a year.
Still, the new Epiphone Vintage Pro Thunderbird is getting rave reviews.
 
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Some of you looked like this in the '70s.

And some of you still do.

pqYRotT.jpg
 
Hey folks, thanks for the messages!

Just one update:
my luthier said that the main problem was not in the frets, but the scale actually had a spine "which is not uncommon in the Gibson."
We took a large gauge string set, then, after a fine adjustment in the truss rod and especially in the nut, the bass got a better playability, but still well away from what I expected in an instrument presented like "custom shop".

The good news? It sounds huge. Next Thursday I'll be plugging it live with one of my bands. :)

What does "the scale wasn't very good" mean?

My mistake, I meant "the fretboard" (we call it 'escala' in my native language). ;)

Can you send pics? If the high action and poor scale intonation are caused by the bridge almost popping out, then there's your answer. String tension can pull the large posts and their sockets forward. I've had to re-seat them on more than one bass. Once I did, no more problems.
Fret sprout can be caused by climate changes.

Yes, I understand your thoughts, although I never had this happening with Gibsons, just Epis. When I wrote "almost popping out" I meant just about the bad setup, very high action.

It doesn’t make sense for the OP to complain about Gibson's QC when he bought a 4 year old one.

I partially agree with you. Some of the issues are QC, some are not, and I blended them all in my text.
Anyway, I bought it from a Gibson licensed store who says their instruments are shipped after an inspection and setup, doesn't it?
As far as I know, "floor model" stuff means "this instrument has been tested by the public in our store and may show small imperfections of amateur handling". Definitely not "this instrument has been tested by the public and we will ship it to you anyway no matter how it looks or feels". To me, this is shameful.

I have one. Maybe same, black?
You will not get good intonation because of the bridge, you need a mod bar or spacer due to where the string meets the saddle. Design flaw, no amount of setup wizardry will help. Wasn't happy to learn but the modbar works fine.

Yes, a black one. :)
I'm also into the mod bars. It's a good modification indeed.

These days, it’s more like people play a single example of the brand, and if it’s not 100% perfect for them, the flood gates of negativity open.

That's not my case, brother. I have owned 3 vintage Gibsons, a handful of Epiphones, and I'm actually renovating a 1969 EB0. I really like the Gibson sound and vibe. And became disappointed when I bought a theoretically high-end bass with fancy credentials and so many problems.

About the Epiphone x Gibson matter, now I have my second Jack Casady model: the first one had a VERY twisted fretboard, tuning issues etc. When I succumbed to the temptation to buy a white model, it arrived flawless and I love it stock the way it is. Even being refurbished. You guys may be right, LOL

And a small curiosity: looks like nowadays the bridge is made in Japan. No xenophobic comments here, please! :)

Greetings from Brazil

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The simple fact is that, since the mid-1960's (Norlin era), Gibson design and quality control has been unreliable. Sometimes good, sometimes awful. No knowledgeable player would ever pay a premium price for a post-1965 Gibson flat-top acoustic. At that time, Gibson decided to reduce their warranty costs by thickening the tops and the bracing until their acoustics had all the tone of a cigar box (apologies to cigar boxes). Later they got over themselves and started doing better, but they permanently lost their cachet among acoustic folk players. The Japanese guitar manufacturers had been restricted to the lowest price realm in the US guitar market until the early 1970's when they brought out copies of US guitars that were better than the models they copied. It was especially true of the Gibson electric copies. A Fujigen-built Les Paul copy (Ibanez-branded, other-branded, or non-branded) of 1973 was quite simply a better guitar than a comparable Gibson LP, for about half the money. I was an active bar band singer at the time and knew a good number of guitarists who dumped their Gibson electrics for Japanese copies.
Given that you are in Brazil and returning would be a pain, why not contact Reverb.com and the seller, describing your problems. You should be entitled to a partial refund to defray the costs you are incurring to bring the instrument up to advertised spec.
Greg
 
My newest Gibson product is a Jack Casady Signature from the first run. It arrived in excellent condition and the set-up was spot on. In fact knowing it was made it Korea, it far exceeded all my expectations. I was prepared for something of a disappointment.

Other then that I can't say. My newest Gibson is a T-bird (1992 or so) and then a 70s something RD Artist. Both of those Gibson basses are excellent in terms of production quality, and tone, and in every other way. If fact I'm playing the T-bird in my profile photo. With modesty.
 
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Just one update:
my luthier said that the main problem was not in the frets, but the scale actually had a spine "which is not uncommon in the Gibson."

I suspect that we're hitting a language barrier here, since I've never heard of a fretboard with a "spine". Could you please elaborate?

Anyway, I bought it from a Gibson licensed store who says their instruments are shipped after an inspection and setup, doesn't it?

What's a "Gibson licensed store" ? The only thing that came to my mind was the old Norlin Music store on Denmark St. in London, but I doubt that it still exists - at least under that name - or that your bass came from there...

As far as I know, "floor model" stuff means "this instrument has been tested by the public in our store and may show small imperfections of amateur handling". Definitely not "this instrument has been tested by the public and we will ship it to you anyway no matter how it looks or feels". To me, this is shameful.

Welcome to the lovely world of marketing, where misrepresentation is everything. Hope you enjoy your stay.

The simple fact is that, since the mid-1960's (Norlin era), Gibson design and quality control has been unreliable.

Norlin-era hasn't started in the mid 1960 since Norlin bought Gibson in 1969 and first design changes - in the electric segment of the market since I can't vouch for acoustics - were not implemented until some time in 1970.


The Japanese guitar manufacturers had been restricted to the lowest price realm in the US guitar market until the early 1970's when they brought out copies of US guitars that were better than the models they copied. It was especially true of the Gibson electric copies. A Fujigen-built Les Paul copy (Ibanez-branded, other-branded, or non-branded) of 1973 was quite simply a better guitar than a comparable Gibson LP, for about half the money.

Another myth that needs to be dispelled. While I'm fully aware of the (over) rating that Fujigen-build instruments maintain nowadays, they are in most respects not really comparable with the originals, whether the latter references Gibson, Fender or Rickenbacker. Fine instruments in their own right, and at their price range at the time? Absolutely. But no more than that. Most of my generation had owned them, played them and respected them as serviceable instruments, but no one maintained the view that they surpassed the originals. Nowadays, when the *real* vintage/collectible instruments (as per Gruhn's original classification from 40 years ago, which I mostly agree with) may as well be made out of platinum given their prices, anything and everything old has been re-classified as "vintage" and is being viewed as both a great instrument and an investment by way too many folks.
 
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I suspect that we're hitting a language barrier here, since I've never heard of a fretboard with a "spine". Could you please elaborate?

Not just language, but adjectives and nouns.
The fretboard is not straight, has an accident in in the 6th and 7th frets, especially on strings E and A. Not straight, but not exactly twisted (as happened in my first Jack Casady).
Is it elaborated enough? How would you describe it?

What's a "Gibson licensed store" ? The only thing that came to my mind was the old Norlin Music store on Denmark St. in London, but I doubt that it still exists - at least under that name - or that your bass came from there...

I just realized I wrote just "Reverb.com" and it's not very accurate. In fact I bought the bass from Chicago Music Exchange via Reverb.
If you are really interested, this is the message I received from Tyler, from Chicago Music Exchange, after I questioned the real state of the instrument:
"These are brand new instruments we purchased from Gibson. The ones labeled as floor models may have been on display in their facilities or something similar. So sometimes they have light wear, small scratches, or finish blemishes. As far as the function of the instrument it will be inspected and setup before it leaves our facilities. If there are any major issues with the guitar we would contact you before hand, or we would grab a different instrument. "
 
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Is it elaborated enough? How would you describe it?

Tough to say without seeing the instrument in question, but "a partial ski jump" would be my best guess for now.

I just realized I wrote just "Reverb.com" and it's not very accurate. In fact I bought the bass from Chicago Music Exchange via Reverb.
If you are really interested, this is the message I received from Tyler, from Chicago Music Exchange, after I questioned the real state of the instrument:
"These are brand new instruments we purchased from Gibson. The ones labeled as floor models may have been on display in their facilities or something similar. So sometimes they have light wear, small scratches, or finish blemishes. As far as the function of the instrument it will be inspected and setup before it leaves our facilities. If there are any major issues with the guitar we would contact you before hand, or we would grab a different instrument. "

If I'm not mistaken - and those "in the know" feel free to correct me by all means - these are the same people who own the Reverb site itself...

Unfortunately, the seller has grossly misrepresented either the condition of the instrument, their own practices or both and your geographic location put you in a predicament where returning the bass would not be an easy or an inexpensive route.

I've got no wisdom to offer, but I do feel for you having gone through somewhat similar experiences in a vastly different world that I've once lived in.

My hope is that the headache stemming from a buying experience that left a lot to be desired subsides once you get to play the bass on regular basis after the work on it has been completed.

Wishing you the best of luck with your Gibbys new and old.
 
I have quite a few horror stories about Gibson from working in guitar shops, but this is my favorite.
I applied to the Montana facility (i.e. the not evil branch) for an entry level sanding position. gotta start somewhere, right?
first off, they'd only interview in person (not exactly a short trip from Arizona.) I don't know why, as the interview was less than ten minutes, including the "shooting the breeze" part. apparently there was a birthday party going on that the manager wanted to get to. after that I was lead to a small, windowless room with just a chair, ancient computer (seriously, when was the last time you used a CRT monitor?) and a half-finished acoustic flying V prototype. I had to run through a series of tests, ranging from word problems, logic, patterns/shape recognition, and math. it took well over an hour, but the manager was impressed how quickly I finished. I asked if he knew how I did, and he said I was probably fine, "you gotta work hard to fail that." all that was left was to get signed off by Henry. Juszkiewicz. personally. the CEO of a multi-million company. for a level 1 sanding position. and it would take some time because he was in Hong Kong and they weren't sure when he was coming back.
as I was leaving I asked if I could look out over the factory floor. he was explaining how their production line worked, and what specialized equipment they had. I pointed to a gentleman in the corner just slathering some black too all over a body. he sighed, "he's... applying grain filler. in the wrong direction. we're gonna have to strip that."
I didn't get the job. guess Henry wasn't impressed. (at least I'm pretty sure I didn't get it - they never called me or returned any of my calls. nice.)
 
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I have both Gibson and Epiphone basses and the first thing I did with all of them is remove that craptastic 3 point bridge and replace it with a Hipshot Super Tone. The bridge is a drop in replacement, easy to set up, sounds fantastic and is far, far superior to the stock one. If your luthier has problems with setting up that bass (or even if he doesn't) I highly recommend you look into one because it will solve of your setup problems as long as the mounting barrels in the body and the neck are OK. They look pretty dang good too and I have included a side by side of my Epi EB-3 and Gibson SG that have been modded with one. That said I've never had any QC issues with any of them but the fretwork, wiring and everything else is markedly superior in the Gibson as opposed to my Epiphones but maybe I just got lucky. Also it may be worth noting that Epiphone now owns Gibson, Steinberger and a host of other brand names and if you ever have to send one in for repair you'll be sending it to them and I have heard that Gibson quality began to suffer after they were bought out. Good luck with your 335 and rock on!
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From the comments:

"This whole business model of taking a revered American brand name and raping it seemed to really take off in the 1990s, when I first began to notice it. As a musician, I saw a lot of well-known, formerly quality musical instrument brands begin to cheapen their products and send the manufacturing offshore. In addition, people are copyrighting old musical instrument brands from the 30s, 40s, and 50s and putting out new crap with these names on them. There was a time when these companies would never have attached their names to such garbage instruments… but it’s been a race to the bottom for some time now. Brands are now meaningless in many cases."


Same thing started happening in the bicycle business years ago. Schwinn, Mongoose, GT were among the first to go and the carnage continues.
 

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