We have a similar issue at my work. All of the decisions that impact guests are being made by the 2% of the company that work in the corporate office... rather than the people that are on the floor and face to face with guests every day. Its kind of unreal how they dont even ask us for feedback. Basically a bunch of good ol' boy nepotism and back patting going on up there... when numbers are up its by the glory of the fearless leaders.. when numbers are down its these lazy people on the bottom. Gibson seems to be in the same boat.
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Gibson's quality control: has the mojo gone?
- Thread starter andreluckman
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- gibson
I was a Gibson dealer from '77 - '88 ( when I left retail). Gibson's had horribly inconsistent QC for as long as I've been conscious of them. Different owners, different factories, doesn't matter.
I think it has more to do with the fact that their "Evil Empire" modus operandi has completely overshadowed the instruments they make.
I can't think of another company in the entire musical instrument / music tech manufacturing industry that behaves so abhorrently, at so many different levels.
The tremendous reputation Gibson originally earned for their guitars, was well justified. But it was a different era, and musicians didn't have the choice of quality instruments they have today.
Pretty much every bass manufacturer wrestles with the problem that musicians, generally , think that "vintage" instruments are superior to modern instruments.
Sometimes that perception is justified. Sometimes it's because a brand went through a transition period at one point in it's history, and that reputational harm still lingers unfairly. Sometimes the CEO of a company, has an uncompromising vision for their brand, which irritates a small, yet vocal minority.
I think Gibson is unique, because it has it's fingers in so many pies, and has done so much harm throughout the industry, that when less than perfect instruments get to market, it's the last straw.
The good/excellent/exceptional instruments probably don't get as much attention, because that is the standard that people expect of a brand with Gibsons former history (and because people who are happy with products tend to make less noise on the Internet, than people who are disappointed).
Personally speaking, if I were looking to buy a Grabber, I would be looking at a vintage instrument for 3 reasons :
1) the vintage Grabber has the option of models with either a single (variable position) pickup, or multiple pickups.
2) the vintage Grabber (either pickup version) sounds significantly better than the modern reissue.
3) old Gibson profited from the original sale ; current Gibson will not see a penny from a 2nd hand instrument.
Until Gibson changes it's corporate culture, I will vote with my wallet.
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4) The vintage Grabber will likely stay put or climb in value while the new one will likely tank right after purchase and then spend two decades simply being "old" rather than "vintage"... even then it might still have the cloud of a questionable era over it.
Yep, so goes The zealousness for pre CBS Fenders. The CBS beancounters initiated cost cutting measures to materials and procedures that unfortunately impacted the end products.
Of course, they're definitely not the only ones! Remember once, there was nothing but Gibsons and Fenders in the states? And regarding solid body guitars there were basically just those two. Charging 2-3 K for them is where the "deal" is. If they came around 500 USD I would certainly NOT complain about Gibson or anything else. Competition is fierce, and Fender and Gibson has decided to stay in their development, and give the competition free reign in development, moving forward, and better the design. At more competitive prices.
I have no problem with Gibsons. Or Fenders. But some time their "rest on their laurels" philosophy is going to catch up on them. They were "down and out" once in the 80s, before Slash came in and "saved" them again. I have problem with that they don't change their design. Say SG, just a millimeter, or barely that, thicker all around in wood, barerly detectable would make their guitars more stable and would let them stay in tune. There's angle headstock too (see video). Others have got that ages ago. They think they have solved it with that new Gibson nut which are of metal, and thought they solved the problem but not so.
It's the asking price for the new ones I have my gripe with. By and large, and it's mainly the only thing people have vitriol and hatred for them. And when people detects very little difference between them and Chinese knock offs, well there you go. IF I should buy a "Gibson" I would rather turn to Epiphone or the more obscure brand Heritage, which are priced like Gibsons, follow their design to a tee without infringing copyright, but has no tuning problems and nailed all QC .
And BTW, It's Fender that has the upper hand on basses anyway, Gibsons really did never fly. The OPs original problem and post doesn't surprise me at all. It's just that.
The non-Vibrola models had no problem staying in tune since 1966. As for being thicker, that happened in the third generation back in 1970. The "basic" SG design has been changed so many times that it's not even funny. Not all of those changes were for the better, though.
I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but I would not deem a 2017 EB4 to be overpriced at $899 for a 4-string version, nor the newly announced 2018 SG Bass at $1299. To be clear, I'm talking about street prices, not MSRP. But that's me.
I've sold literally a couple of truckloads of Epiphones back in the late 80s/early 90s and still maintain that most - not all - of their products represent excellent value for money. Having owned a Heritage 535 for quite some time, I'll agree that they make splendid instruments in my somewhat limited experience with them.
I don't think that anyone in their right mind would argue about the fact that Fender basses have become the industry standard a long time ago, something that neither Gibson nor anyone else has been able to accomplish in that particular area.
I read the OP's problem as having to deal with an instrument which most likely was exposed to unfriendly environment in more ways than just one over the course of its life, but since I haven't seen it to make that determination in person, this remains just an opinion on my end.
FWIW Heritage instruments have even steeper angle at their headstocks that Gibsons, but no out of tuning, or snapped headstocks. Go figure. But they also are priced somewhere closer to Gibson. But hands to my heart, if I ever went into and Gibson, Epiphone, or Heritage it would be archtops, semi-hollow or hollowbody models. The solid bodies are just ... left astern. Mainly, peoples gripes about Epiphone and Heritage is the headstock look, which they say doesn't look right. Well, if that what it takes to make it not snap or go out of tune so be it.
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EDIT: regarding the OPs original "Is the mojo gone"?
Yes, so it is with most instruments, few keeps their initial "honey moon" startled emotions. They dry up, slowly changes, and after a decade or two, it DAWNS on you slowly. Some of them hasn't got the mojo from the start and never will. Some of them hasn't got the mojo from the start but slowly getting there, and after a decade they soar like an eagle.
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EDIT: regarding the OPs original "Is the mojo gone"?
Yes, so it is with most instruments, few keeps their initial "honey moon" startled emotions. They dry up, slowly changes, and after a decade or two, it DAWNS on you slowly. Some of them hasn't got the mojo from the start and never will. Some of them hasn't got the mojo from the start but slowly getting there, and after a decade they soar like an eagle.
I don't know. I bought an EB0, put a model one and a hipshot super tone. Total cost for all parts, which were new not used, and labor for less than $500. No frets needing to be worked on, no nut filing or anything, and it sounds as good as any stock Gibson. Lots of people have the same results with Squiers vs Fenders. When I can buy an entire bass, new professional grade parts and pay for labor for $700 less then your standard model IMO you are priced too high. You go up $700 on an Ibanez, you go from one piece maple necks to 5 piece Jatoba/ Bubinga neck, Bartolini or Nordstrand, individual string saddles, better finishes, more color choices, etc. That's adding value for your extra money.
All IMO of course.
That's the beauty of having a choice and being able to decide what works for you. Seriously.
Personally, I see a black SG 2018 Bass coming my way within the next month or two.
I buy used, and shop for bargains - I got my Gibson 2013 SG Standard with OHSC that is like new for $610 total off of Reverb.com last year... I'm pretty picky about fretwork, and have an excellent luthier that takes good care of me - but it didn't need anything at all... To be honest, I've never played any Epiphone SG bass that compare to this, nor any Epi T-birds that compare to my Gibson T-bird, either...
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I prefer buying used myself, and the deal that you got on that SG is outright awesome IMO.
However, here's my reasoning for contemplating a brand new 2018 SG Bass
1) For about 40 years now I've been dreaming of a gloss black SG/EB-3. Never owned one.
2) Now that I'm at the age where there's little doubt that most of my time on this planet is behind me, I allow myself to indulge in certain stuff. Take my kids to places that they'll never forget. Buy a brand new Gibson bass which is something I've never done, although I did buy quite a few new Gibson guitars in my younger years.
I've never owned a T-Bird so I'll stay quiet on that one, but your observations on the SG range(s) mirror my own.
Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good deal, too... Funny story: I had been eyeing one of the satin finished Specials for a bit, and let one slip by - then I saw this SG Standard on Reverb and made an offer thinking no way would they take it... then, I got home from my gig that night - and there it was - "offer accepted"!!!! So, I had to scrape up 6 bills pretty fast, lol - it all worked out, though...
I like your reasoning for a bit of self indulgence - hey, why not???
Lastly - I have owned a couple Epi T-birds, and played a bunch of them - and again, none of them compared to my Gibson T-bird:
Funny thing is, I was somewhat defending Gibson in this thread, and I'm not really even a Gibson fan, per se - I'm a Fender fan, thru and thru... Oh, and I turned my last Epi T-bird into this:
I don't find it funny. You've obviously been both fortunate enough and sensible enough to find instruments from different brands - along with creating your own Frankenbuilds - that work *for you* which is all that really matters in my book.
Personally, I don't think I've ever been a fan of a particular brand but have found certain models/pieces that have worked for me over the course of the past few decades.
With that being said, I'm not keen on seeing *any* brand bashing and Gibsons have gotten a ton of that here on TB, with a lot of it being based on hearsay, myth or misrepresentation of the facts.
My $0.02 only...
I worked on the line at Gibson for several years in the 90's. Aggravatingly, it should have been a great job, I've been around guitars and basses my whole life: It was utterly the worst job I ever had, the only job where I just lost it and walked out with no notice.
Bear in mind, I commend them for keeping factories in America. And there are lots of great, talented people that work there, no doubt. But Henry the J's management style is straight out of a horror movie, and the turnover is high. I often joke that if there were a 'Former Gibson Nashville Employees Reunion', they'd need to rent Titans Stadium to hold us all.
And I wouldn't get too shook up about the fines and wood seizures: Most of the places the buyers go and the people they deal with is straight out of Indiana Jones, the local laws are hazy at best, some Yankee dollars go a long way, and like a lot of things, the US Government makes a far bigger deal out of it than the countries involved. But I would ask myself why Gibson (and Henry) are the only one of hundreds of guitar makers treated that way, and then the answer was easy enough to figure out . . . . .
I was literally the last guy on the Assembly Line that did the final wipe-down and buff and handed it to the QC Inspector who would either 'GO' (case it and ship it) or NO GO (oops, it's gotta go back for ___________). And I can tell you from experience, after you've been there for 12 hours straight, and you still have about three hours to go to get the 'number' (how many pieces that MUST ship today), your standards will most definitely loosen up a little . . . . . but by and large, they were all good to go, let's just say a few things only we'd spot in the cosmetics probably got passed at 1 in the morning.
The problem is that Les Pauls will sell until hell freezes over. That's the bread and butter of the entire thing. Beats the hell out of me, but that's just the way it is. The Montana acoustics are by far the best they've ever made, but they're in their own little world up there. Gibson basses: I was there right after he bought Tobias, and they were hot as a pistol at that time. Had he just kept building them to MT's recipes, they'd have still sold like hotcakes . . . . . but it was one more company he bought and just strangled, and gave away all the momentum that led him to buy it in the first place ! And that's been repeated over and over with Trace, Oberheim, Cakewalk, Steinberger, etc.
I feel for the guys that are still there. Their tolerance for stress must be right up there with test pilots or NFL coaches. All those guys are why it's still in business, in spite of Henry's mis-management.
Bear in mind, I commend them for keeping factories in America. And there are lots of great, talented people that work there, no doubt. But Henry the J's management style is straight out of a horror movie, and the turnover is high. I often joke that if there were a 'Former Gibson Nashville Employees Reunion', they'd need to rent Titans Stadium to hold us all.
And I wouldn't get too shook up about the fines and wood seizures: Most of the places the buyers go and the people they deal with is straight out of Indiana Jones, the local laws are hazy at best, some Yankee dollars go a long way, and like a lot of things, the US Government makes a far bigger deal out of it than the countries involved. But I would ask myself why Gibson (and Henry) are the only one of hundreds of guitar makers treated that way, and then the answer was easy enough to figure out . . . . .
I was literally the last guy on the Assembly Line that did the final wipe-down and buff and handed it to the QC Inspector who would either 'GO' (case it and ship it) or NO GO (oops, it's gotta go back for ___________). And I can tell you from experience, after you've been there for 12 hours straight, and you still have about three hours to go to get the 'number' (how many pieces that MUST ship today), your standards will most definitely loosen up a little . . . . . but by and large, they were all good to go, let's just say a few things only we'd spot in the cosmetics probably got passed at 1 in the morning.
The problem is that Les Pauls will sell until hell freezes over. That's the bread and butter of the entire thing. Beats the hell out of me, but that's just the way it is. The Montana acoustics are by far the best they've ever made, but they're in their own little world up there. Gibson basses: I was there right after he bought Tobias, and they were hot as a pistol at that time. Had he just kept building them to MT's recipes, they'd have still sold like hotcakes . . . . . but it was one more company he bought and just strangled, and gave away all the momentum that led him to buy it in the first place ! And that's been repeated over and over with Trace, Oberheim, Cakewalk, Steinberger, etc.
I feel for the guys that are still there. Their tolerance for stress must be right up there with test pilots or NFL coaches. All those guys are why it's still in business, in spite of Henry's mis-management.
Yeah, A certain Les Paul Standard has made the rounds among local guitarists, and it's been broken and repaired no less than 4 times that I know of - crazy thing is, it's still one hell of a player - go figure... Also, I personally know that 2 of those breaks were due to getting slammed into the stage during "antics", lol...
Well no guitar is completely immune to breakage when The Stupid rears its head...
Have an old player bud that not a damn thing he owns works right. Nada. Zip.
No guitar, amp, cable, stomp, etc...
I think he could actually blow up an old proverbial nuclear proof CS800 power amp just by standing close to it.
He could probably snap a neck with a double size volute...titanium neck...
No guitar, amp, cable, stomp, etc...
I think he could actually blow up an old proverbial nuclear proof CS800 power amp just by standing close to it.
He could probably snap a neck with a double size volute...titanium neck...
