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Global Warming - It's Our Fault

Maybe I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here re sunspot numbers etc.. It seem like you're saying the IPCC sould be taking into account as yet unknown forcings. :confused:

That's exactly what I'm saying. One of the basic mandates of scientific methodology is to control or account for all significant variables. Of course this is easy when the experiments are relatively simple and well understood, but with climatology, some of the known forcings and the associated variables are poorly understood and there is an inherent complexity that quickly multiplies the uncertainties to a point where useful conclusions become difficult to make.

Specifically regarding sunspots, it is known that there is a causal link between their aggregate number at maxima and warming of the Earth's atmosphere. Yet the mechanism for how this works is unknown and the magnitude of this effect is also unknown. It may be significant or it may not be.

For the purposes of attributing the correct amount of the observed warming over the 20th century to human activity - which is likely to be the majority, as the IPCC reports state - we need to know roughly how much or how little warming is attributable to sunspot activity, independent of solar irradiance.

The IPCC correctly considers, in considerable detail, variations in solar irradiance as a forcing and also correctly rejects it as a significant factor in warming during the 20th century. Yet, sunspot activity apparently has an effect on the Earth's climate that is independent from solar irradiance and this can't just be ignored because the mechanism isn't understood. This is the mistake the IPCC is making.

The real problem is there is no way to judge this factor's effect on warming because there simply is no information to go on other than we know it exists in some amount. Perhaps the amount truly is minuscule and can be ignored. Or it might be significant and greatly affects the calculation of climate sensitivity.

From the vantage point of proper scientific methodology, the correct action is to acknowledge the uncertainty with an appropriately sized margin of error. The IPCC apparently construes our lack of knowledge as irrelevance and dismisses the issue.

If, in the future, we discover that the effect is truly minuscule, then we can count our blessings that our current calculations were correct in that regard. But if we find out that there was a natural cause behind a significant portion of the warming that we assumed was entirely caused by human activity then the reputation of many scientists, and of science in general, has been flushed down the toilet, providing the true global warming deniers with the ammunition to say the alarmists were using bogus science all along.

And they'd be justified in saying so. Unfortunately, society would then have reason to assume that the entire global warming issue was a hoax and any plans we may have to mitigate the effect of man-made global warming in the future we can kiss goodbye. This can't be allowed to happen, which is why it's so important to rigorously follow proper methodology and accurately account for all variables, even if such accounting might imply global climate change was a bit less of a crisis than we first thought. Sloppy assumptions which exaggerate, however slightly, the effect we humans are having on the climate will prove to be disastrous for long term credibility. I repeat: this can't be allowed to happen.

You're implying that smoothing of data effects the results. That's a big and unsubstantiated call right there. Are you talking about Manns study for example? Or the many, MANY subsequent tudies that have independently confirmed it.

My assertion is that the way the data is processed limits the use to which the subsequent graph can be used. The processed information is certainly scientifically valid for many purposes germane to the IPCC report. But one use it's been put to is to support the claim that climate temperatures were relatively stable over the past few thousand years while those temperatures began to vary dramatically during the 20th century. This is an unjustified conclusion because the data that makes up the graph has been processed in such a way that this conclusion is unavoidable. Large variations in temperature have been artificially smoothed out during the time period that the proxy data covers, while they are left intact in the period that uses direct data from the 20th century.

This is important to know because some estimates of the ECS use this exact paleo-climate data and the associated observable trends to calculate the results. Further, the assumption that paleo-climate temperatures varied little compared to the past century is used as partial justification to dismiss the significance of all natural forcings as a factor in the observed warming of the 20th century. [See IPCC AR4, Chapter 9 - Understanding and Attributing Climate Change: 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.6, 9.7, FAQ 9.2]
 
That's exactly what I'm saying. One of the basic mandates of scientific methodology is to control or account for all significant variables. Of course this is easy when the experiments are relatively simple and well understood, but with climatology, some of the known forcings and the associated variables are poorly understood and there is an inherent complexity that quickly multiplies the uncertainties to a point where useful conclusions become difficult to make.
Actually the forcings are quite well understood - it's the feedbacks and internal variability (esp transfer of heat between ocean and atmos) that cause the uncertainty.
Specifically regarding sunspots, it is known that there is a causal link between their aggregate number at maxima and warming of the Earth's atmosphere.

Yet the mechanism for how this works is unknown and the magnitude of this effect is also unknown. It may be significant or it may not be.
Correlation is not causation - the same thing can cause both. eg. High sunspot count gives a good indication of TSI If sunspots and temps correlate it is more than likely that temps are effected by TSI.... as you would expect. But as we've already discussed - the relationship here broke down in the mid 20th century.
For the purposes of attributing the correct amount of the observed warming over the 20th century to human activity - which is likely to be the majority, as the IPCC reports state - we need to know roughly how much or how little warming is attributable to sunspot activity, independent of solar irradiance.
If there's no mechanism for transer of energy, or effecting the uptake of energy then it should not be factored in to the equation. Saying it correlates with temps is not enough because temps also correlate with TSI - which IS an increase in the planets energy budget.
The IPCC correctly considers, in considerable detail, variations in solar irradiance as a forcing and also correctly rejects it as a significant factor in warming during the 20th century. Yet, sunspot activity apparently has an effect on the Earth's climate that is independent from solar irradiance and this can't just be ignored because the mechanism isn't understood. This is the mistake the IPCC is making.
I suppose porccupine farts haven't been considered either. but this too is highly unlikely to have any significant effect.
The real problem is there is no way to judge this factor's effect on warming because there simply is no information to go on other than we know it exists in some amount. Perhaps the amount truly is minuscule and can be ignored. Or it might be significant and greatly affects the calculation of climate sensitivity.

From the vantage point of proper scientific methodology, the correct action is to acknowledge the uncertainty with an appropriately sized margin of error. The IPCC apparently construes our lack of knowledge as irrelevance and dismisses the issue.

If, in the future, we discover that the effect is truly minuscule, then we can count our blessings that our current calculations were correct in that regard. But if we find out that there was a natural cause behind a significant portion of the warming that we assumed was entirely caused by human activity then the reputation of many scientists, and of science in general, has been flushed down the toilet, providing the true global warming deniers with the ammunition to say the alarmists were using bogus science all along.

And they'd be justified in saying so. Unfortunately, society would then have reason to assume that the entire global warming issue was a hoax and any plans we may have to mitigate the effect of man-made global warming in the future we can kiss goodbye. This can't be allowed to happen, which is why it's so important to rigorously follow proper methodology and accurately account for all variables, even if such accounting might imply global climate change was a bit less of a crisis than we first thought. Sloppy assumptions which exaggerate, however slightly, the effect we humans are having on the climate will prove to be disastrous for long term credibility. I repeat: this can't be allowed to happen.



My assertion is that the way the data is processed limits the use to which the subsequent graph can be used. The processed information is certainly scientifically valid for many purposes germane to the IPCC report. But one use it's been put to is to support the claim that climate temperatures were relatively stable over the past few thousand years while those temperatures began to vary dramatically during the 20th century. This is an unjustified conclusion because the data that makes up the graph has been processed in such a way that this conclusion is unavoidable. Large variations in temperature have been artificially smoothed out during the time period that the proxy data covers, while they are left intact in the period that uses direct data from the 20th century.
This point popped up recently when the Harcott paper came out. People questioned the result suggesting that a signal as large as the modern warming period could be somehow be hidden in the data. Thus the MWP would not be significant. Like this.....
unperturbed.jpg

Tamino demonstrated that it's just not possible that spikes of that magnitude could hide in data.....

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/smearing-climate-data/
This is important to know because some estimates of the ECS use this exact paleo-climate data and the associated observable trends to calculate the results. Further, the assumption that paleo-climate temperatures varied little compared to the past century is used as partial justification to dismiss the significance of all natural forcings as a factor in the observed warming of the 20th century. [See IPCC AR4, Chapter 9 - Understanding and Attributing Climate Change: 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.6, 9.7, FAQ 9.2]
 
"Science" was created/ discovered/ add preferred euphemism here by humans. Humans are fallible. As long as humans, machines (computers and such) made and programmed by humans are the ones determining "science", it too will always be fallible. Science that was "undeniable science fact" years ago has been disproven.

Einstein theorized about the existence of "black holes". The scientific community at the time said it was impossible. We now know they exist, and even have proof. Just because many scientists (even most) believe something to be true does not make it so. Clearly the climate is changing. But, it always has, and it always will.

I consider scientists thinking they can (or even should) change the climate to be the height of arrogance. Such arrogance will only lead to more trouble. People so impressed with themselves are more of a hindrance than a help, in my opinion, of course.

Please, please, please, read some Karl Popper, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, and Thomas Kuhn (who actually does highlight how science got things "wrong" but yet doesn't hate science like you seem to) to get an understanding of how anytime a scientific discussion comes up on TB, your predictable (no pun intended) strawmen are wrong.

Of course what was "undeniable science fact" has changed over the years (it hasn't been "disproven" since science is not in the business of "proving" or "disproving" anything). That's what science does. When a theory that is more explanatory, parsimonious, or valid comes along, old paradigms are discarded.
 
FWIW, which is nothing, here is my opinion.

I mostly accept the IPCC findings, but I think they may be somewhat conservative and that we'll see greater change than that predicted.

I have little doubt that humans will not take any meaningful action to avoid the worst outcomes. With each nation (and person) vying for economic advantage, nobody will reduce economic output to any meaningful level to make a difference.

The effects will be devastating to civilization as it is today. However, I also believe that humans will continue on in much reduced numbers. I don't think that we'll go extinct (just yet) although it may appear like that at times.

Now you're all welcome to tell me how wrong I am.
 
Please, please, please, read some Karl Popper, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, and Thomas Kuhn (who actually does highlight how science got things "wrong" but yet doesn't hate science like you seem to) to get an understanding of how anytime a scientific discussion comes up on TB, your predictable (no pun intended) strawmen are wrong.

Of course what was "undeniable science fact" has changed over the years (it hasn't been "disproven" since science is not in the business of "proving" or "disproving" anything). That's what science does. When a theory that is more explanatory, parsimonious, or valid comes along, old paradigms are discarded.

Can I get a number in the "I read Thomas Kuhn" club? Also: how do you even reason with people who actively support scientific discoveries that lead to pollution, but who do not believe that human pollution is harmful to the environment and who can not believe that science could provide insight into how to solve that problem? It is frightening to me that people are able to gratify themselves by saying that science was once skeptical of black holes, therefore our current scientific community will be proven wrong about CO2 someday. The future of the human race is held hostage by its most ignorant and self-absorbed members.
 
Can I get a number in the "I read Thomas Kuhn" club? Also: how do you even reason with people who actively support scientific discoveries that lead to pollution, but who do not believe that human pollution is harmful to the environment and who can not believe that science could provide insight into how to solve that problem? It is frightening to me that people are able to gratify themselves by saying that science was once skeptical of black holes, therefore our current scientific community will be proven wrong about CO2 someday. The future of the human race is held hostage by its most ignorant and self-absorbed members.

Well put.

The choice is either give in and allow them to win, or keeping chipping away, piece by piece, marginalising the nay-sayers one by one.

I know which strategy I prefer.
 
Also: how do you even reason with people who actively support scientific discoveries that lead to pollution, but who do not believe that human pollution is harmful to the environment and who can not believe that science could provide insight into how to solve that problem?

This is exactly what I deal with.

The geologists that find oil deposits are doing good science, while the geologists (present company) that find gasoline contamination in soil and groundwater are doing bad science.

I'm told fairly regularly that the contamination that I find "won't hurt anyone". I then offer to pour them a glass of unleaded to drink since it's so harmless.:eek:

Often enough the solutions aren't palatable, such as paying loads of money to cleanup contamination or making lifestyle sacrifices to reduce one's carbon footprint.
 
I'm inclined to trust the science. I think people are making a normal warming trend much faster. I'm no scientist, but I do know that if I shut my car in the garage without opening the garage windows enough and leave it running, I will die. So it makes sense to me that we might have too many cars in the big Earthen garage, so to speak. Couple that with other pollution, and it seems very feasible to me that we may be accelerating a unpleasant, but otherwise normal change.
Very well said.
 
GW is bull, it's way for globalists to take over industry and people lives and charge them tons o $$ in carbon tax. Its a big scam.

The planet's weather is cyclical there has been countless warm periods and ice ages through out the life of this planet.

This last year has we have more ice on the poles then in the last ten years which is like 1 second in time vs. the age of the planet. It means nothing the last 100 years of industrialism.


Don't be fools. Really and Al Gore is an ASS.
 
Yeah, umm, you might want to go back and read some of the thread?


Which parts? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore flying around to conferences on GW in a jet? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore having a crap ton of stock in the only company making curly light bulbs? Maybe the part where someone mentions the fact that his electric bill in his Tennessee mansion is more in one month than most people's in a year?


Sorry, didn't see any of that. What I did see was a bunch of guys on an internet music forum acting like they have some answers and treating everyone who disagrees with them like they are ******** and as one of you put it, "marginalize the naysayers one at a time". Then you wonder why people think you're pompous, pretentious windbags. I'll give you all a clue. You are nowhere near as smart as you think you are or pretend to be. Shut up and play yer bass.
 
What's interesting is that those here that concur may or may not have the credentials to equate them as peers to the researchers and would, by their postings here, treat the 2% of actual peers that don't agree with the research as idiots. For whatever reason, those 2% have been ridiculed into giving up their resistance and so consensus is complete. Cajoling and ridicule exists in the sciences, always has, always will, yet so many claim it is 100% objective. BS.

Simply reading collated data reports and posting drearily long and boring posts on a music forum does not make one a peer researcher.
 
a bunch of guys on an internet music forum acting like they have some answers <snip> I'll give you all a clue. You are nowhere near as smart as you think you are or pretend to be. Shut up and play yer bass.

This is in off topic.

You know what they say...
If you can't stand the heat...
















...believe politicians and lawyers who say it's really a cold snap.
 
Which parts? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore flying around to conferences on GW in a jet? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore having a crap ton of stock in the only company making curly light bulbs? Maybe the part where someone mentions the fact that his electric bill in his Tennessee mansion is more in one month than most people's in a year?
You missed part where I said that dragging Al Gore through the mud doesn't change the laws of physics.

Sorry, didn't see any of that. What I did see was a bunch of guys on an internet music forum acting like they have some answers and treating everyone who disagrees with them like they are ******** and as one of you put it, "marginalize the naysayers one at a time". Then you wonder why people think you're pompous, pretentious windbags. I'll give you all a clue. You are nowhere near as smart as you think you are or pretend to be. Shut up and play yer bass.
I'll let your post speak for itself - the only person being insulting here is you.
 
Just one question. With all the digital/internet technology we have today, why to global warming scientists and activists always have to fly all over the planet in fossil fuel burning jets (many private) to meet with each other? Why don't THEY sacrifice some lifestyle and put their money where their mouths are?
 
GW is bull, it's way for globalists to take over industry and people lives and charge them tons o $$ in carbon tax. Its a big scam.
Australia introduced a carbon tax 2 years (?) ago - it's revenue neutral. people get a rebate for the electricity increases so if you use less energy you wind up in front. Our economy has increased, CO2 levels decreased.
The planet's weather is cyclical there has been countless warm periods and ice ages through out the life of this planet.
Yes but it doesn't happen by magic - it's always caused by something. Right now we are observing warming on a global scale and all indicators point to its being caused by elevated levels of CO2.
This last year has we have more ice on the poles then in the last ten years...

No we don't.
volume_anom.jpg

...which is like 1 second in time vs. the age of the planet. It means nothing the last 100 years of industrialism.
This is not normal.
Kinnard_2011_sea_ice_med.jpg

Don't be fools. Really and Al Gore is an ASS.

Al Gore is an ass therefore don't worry about it. Got it.
 
Which parts? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore flying around to conferences on GW in a jet? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore having a crap ton of stock in the only company making curly light bulbs? Maybe the part where someone mentions the fact that his electric bill in his Tennessee mansion is more in one month than most people's in a year?


Sorry, didn't see any of that. What I did see was a bunch of guys on an internet music forum acting like they have some answers and treating everyone who disagrees with them like they are ******** and as one of you put it, "marginalize the naysayers one at a time". Then you wonder why people think you're pompous, pretentious windbags. I'll give you all a clue. You are nowhere near as smart as you think you are or pretend to be. Shut up and play yer bass.

Interesting. Care to post a link to your recent Lobby thread?
 
Which parts? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore flying around to conferences on GW in a jet? The parts where someone mentions Al Gore having a crap ton of stock in the only company making curly light bulbs? Maybe the part where someone mentions the fact that his electric bill in his Tennessee mansion is more in one month than most people's in a year?


Sorry, didn't see any of that. What I did see was a bunch of guys on an internet music forum acting like they have some answers and treating everyone who disagrees with them like they are ******** and as one of you put it, "marginalize the naysayers one at a time". Then you wonder why people think you're pompous, pretentious windbags. I'll give you all a clue. You are nowhere near as smart as you think you are or pretend to be. Shut up and play yer bass.

Aren't you acting the same way, only for the other side?
 
Just one question. With all the digital/internet technology we have today, why to global warming scientists and activists always have to fly all over the planet in fossil fuel burning jets (many private) to meet with each other? Why don't THEY sacrifice some lifestyle and put their money where their mouths are?

This is true. For climate change activists to be taken seriously, they need to live the message that they're trying to send. Otherwise it comes across that they're expecting someone else to make the necessary sacrifices while they do nothing. This is why Al Gore's message is so easily dismissed. Not that he's wrong, but he discredits his message with his high-carbon lifestyle.
 
according to after earth the planet will freeze over every night, baboons will become even more evil, giant condors will have a heart of gold, and leeches will develop a neuro-toxin so that they can remain attached while they suck us dry. fear the climate change.

I'll let your post speak for itself - the only person being insulting here is you.

No, there are plenty of people here ignoring what was said to spout preconceived notions and treating anyone who doesn't agree with their half baked understandings as lesser beings.