• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Global Warming - It's Our Fault

...

With this in mind, consider what the IPCC models "cannot predict" (as you rightly stated). There is a long list of natural forcings that are ignored as insignificant because they "have a short term effect on the global temperature signal but do not affect the long term trend."

This is NOT a valid assumption.
In the AR5 The IPCC tried to explain that ENSO oscillation is the main reason temperatures deviate from projections in the short term. ENSO is not a forcing. It oscillates around a nuetral state and has no effect on long term trends. Volcanic aerosols have a cooling effect on the planet by having a significant but short term effect on temps. Their effects are impressively well understood - even in the 90's Hansen correctly modelled and projected golbal temps in response to the Mt pinatubo eruption.... but it's impossible for a climate model to predict things like eruptions and oceanic oscillations. Once again - volcanic eruptions do NOT have long term effects on temp trends.

Of course there are other natural forcings which have effected climate over millenia - variations in TSI (solar), orbital oscillations, and GHG levels INCLUDING naturally occurring CO2. To say that it can't possibly be CO2 because of Al Gore and some derpy conspiracy theory is just daft. Climate scientists are trying to quantify exacly how much of an effect each of these different components have on the bigger picture. Obviously when you have a MASSIVE uptick in one of these components you're quite likely to see some kind of physical effect.... and we are.

The data clearly shows that natural forcings that are being dismissed as irrelevant certainly do have a significant effect on atmoshperic temperatures at all time scales (by year, decade, century, millenium, etc...). It is a gross failure on the part of the IPCC for them to not see the evidence of this in their own data which is used to make up their famous "hockey stick" graph.

Going back to the raw data demonstrates that the combination of all natural forcings have caused warming and cooling trends at all time scales, and this was all before any human activity could have affected the atmosphere in any way.
Correct but this is not ignored by the IPCC. Climate science is based on analasys of prehistoric proxy data. These things are not dismissed as irrelevant or ignored. They are quantified and put into context. There are many charts in the AR4 and 5 quantifying different climatic influences.

webpic.jpg


forcings.gif

The IPCC have used this complexity and our lack of understanding of these factors as a reason to dismiss them. They state this quite clearly.
They do? Where? If so why do they dedicate an entire chapter to attribution?
This is not accepted scientific practice. A critical part of the methodology is to control or account for all significant variables and all good scientists know this. If the variables are too complex to understand then it's incumbent on the scientists to take this into account by admitting the lack of knowledge and including an appropriately large margin of error to call attention to it.
Yep. That's why when you see a projection graph it will have a grey area either side to show the 2 sigma confidence level.
The IPCC have, instead, simply processed the data in graph form in such a way as to make the natural forcings appear to have relatively little effect on global temperature. The authors of AR4 (and presumably it's the same in AR5) spell out exactly how they've done this and it's apparent that they don't see anything wrong with the process.
Nor do I. Their reasoning seems sound.
This illustrates the inherent problem with having the authors of the report (the ones responsible for pulling everything together from the many contributing scientists and drawing conclusions from their unbiased work) being motivated by priorities other than scientific objectivity.
They have come to a conclusion that you don't like so you assume they are wrong and are looking hard for a reason. That is bad science.
 
...
The atmospheric temperature fluctuates up and down at the scale of decades while following a general trend upwards (following the blue line). Combining the two factors of CO2 concentration and sunspot activity is a better fit with the global temperature than either factor alone. This gives support to my assertion that the "true" climate sensitivity is not zero (as the global warming ignorers say) and neither is it 3.5C (as the global warming alarmists say), but rather somewhere in between.
...

The IPCC figure is not 3.5º. It is a range between 1.5º and 4.5º. "Alarmists" put the figure at above 4.5º.

In brief - there are 3 reasons why the recent warming is not predominantly solar:
1- there has been no corresponding rise in TSI since 1960
2- Temperature rises are greater at night
3- The stratosphere is cooling. ie it MUST be getting less radiative energy from the warming troposphere.

These are all signals of a greater GHG influence.

The solar thing has been debunked a long time ago - it's time to move on.
 
First commercial frack in the us was at Hugoten. I know because one of my best friend's dad's was there. It was 1947.

Fracking technology ( though not advanced and not economically feasible) has existed since somewhere before 1920. NY state I believe.

Fracking was first developed in 1866 by Col. Edward Roberts, Patent No. 59,936. He used an exploding torpedo device to open up rock fissures in oil wells. The first fracking began in Pennsylvania. This early fracking was a commercial success with as much as a 1,200% production increase.

Edit: You're right that the first hydro-fracking occurred at Hugoten in 1947 by Floyd Farris of Stanolin Oil.
 
The IPCC figure is not 3.5º. It is a range between 1.5º and 4.5º. "Alarmists" put the figure at above 4.5º.

In brief - there are 3 reasons why the recent warming is not predominantly solar:
1- there has been no corresponding rise in TSI since 1960
2- Temperature rises are greater at night
3- The stratosphere is cooling. ie it MUST be getting less radiative energy from the warming troposphere.

These are all signals of a greater GHG influence.

The solar thing has been debunked a long time ago - it's time to move on.


Once again, your attention to detail in posting such useful and relevant information is noteworthy. I consider it a failure on my part to respond without properly addressing everything you've posted in a thorough manner. To that end, I've tried to answer your assertions in an equally thorough manner and using exact quotes from the IPCC AR4 (which I've been reading through over the past week) as reference.

Unfortunately, I've discovered that just creating a reply concerning your above post on solar irradiance (TSI) took up several dozen paragraphs and was therefore inappropriate for this forum. The best I can do is a greatly abbreviated post which follows this one.

I would welcome the opportunity to address your other assertions in detail but, frankly, I don't believe we can do the process justice with the accepted space constraints inherent to a general discussion forum like this one. I will post further comments as I find time for and if anyone wants detailed replies with extensive quotes as reference from the AR4-5 they can PM me.
 
The relevent sources from IPCC AR5:

8.4.1 Solar Irradiance (starting on page 1045)

8.4.1.1 Satellite Measurements of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI)

8.4.1.2 TSI Variations since Preindustrial Time

8.4.1.3 Attempts to Estimate Future Centennial Trends of TSI

8.4.1.4.2 Measurements of spectral irradiance

8.4.1.5 The Effects of Cosmic Rays on Clouds

Also:
7.4.6.2 Physical Mechanisms Linking Cosmic Rays to Cloudiness (starting of page 912)


vin*tone said:
In brief - there are 3 reasons why the recent warming is not predominantly solar:
1- there has been no corresponding rise in TSI since 1960
2- Temperature rises are greater at night
3- The stratosphere is cooling. ie it MUST be getting less radiative energy from the warming troposphere.

The link between sunspot number at solar maximum and atmospheric temperature is real but the mechanism for the effect (as well as its magnitude) is somewhat less than poorly understood. The above references in AR5 all refer to solar irradiance (TSI - in all frequencies and particularly in UV, which is better understood) and their conclusion is that the effect is insignificant with respect to atmospheric warming and has been negligible in its effect on warming during the past century. Accordingly, all three of your stated reasons for assuming the extra warming is not related to the sun have TSI as their mechanism as a radiative forcing agent.

This is the correct conclusion (as you've pointed out) and I don't dispute it. However, this ignores the possibility (or likelihood) that sunspot number may significantly affect atmospheric temperature without being related to TSI, either directly or through the mechanism for the creation of clouds via cosmic rays.

What I have suggested is that it's a mistake to dismiss the effect of sunspot number (or rather the character of the sun's magnetosphere that is related to sunspot activity) on the Earth's magnetosphere simply because the mechanism that may be responsible for any possible causal link is unknown at this time.

The fact is, paleo-climate data shows a strong correlation between sunspot activity and a causal link to significant changes in Earth's climate is assumed to exist according to astronomers and climatologists. [I'm trying to relocate the appropriate sources from NASA, but the current government shutdown has temporarily closed down their website :scowl:] The IPCC AR5 should properly include sunspot activity as a potential driver of climate change and as a possible significant contributor to the observed global warming during the 20th century.
 
In the AR5 The IPCC tried to explain that ENSO oscillation is the main reason temperatures deviate from projections in the short term. ENSO is not a forcing. It oscillates around a nuetral state and has no effect on long term trends.

ENSO oscillation certainly is one of the known factors in significant deviations of temperatures on the dacadal scale. If it were true that this specific, well documented phenomenon was the only oscillation that affected climate, then it would be correct to assume that it "has no effect on long term trends". However, the source of ENSO oscillation is an emergent behavior that exhibits chaotic tendencies. One characteristic of such systems is that they sometimes occur on multiple scales (physical or temporal or both) and if this is the case with the Earth's climate, then it is likely that other oscillations that we haven't discovered yet occur on multi-decadal or even multi-century scales.

These describe the known patterns (page 2003, IPCC AR5) :
1 AMO: Atlantic Multi-decadal Oscillation
2 AN: Atlantic Niño pattern
3 BLC: Blocking events
4 ENSO: El Niño-Southern Oscillation
5 IOB: Indian Ocean Basin pattern
6 IOD: Indian Ocean Dipole pattern
7 IPO: Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation
8 MJO: Madden-Julian Oscillation
9 NAM: Northern Annular Mode
10 NAO: North Atlantic Oscillation
11 NPO: North Pacific Oscillation
12 PDO: Pacific Decadal Oscillation
13 PNA: Pacific North America pattern
14 PSA: Pacific South America pattern
15 QBO: Quasi-Biennial Oscillation
16 SAM: Southern Annular Mode
17 TBO: Tropospheric Biennial Oscillation

Multi-temporal scale oscillations are typical of short term weather patterns and this makes weather prediction such a complicated science. The existence of these oscillations is well known but this is only because it's relatively easy to discern their recurring pattern over weekly and monthly periods.

Global climate patterns may be very similar - which is why the IPCC bases its computer climate modeling predictions (Atmospheric/Oceanic Global Climate Models, or AOGCMs) on weather forecasting models - yet any patterns on time scales larger than decadal will be very difficult to pick out of the background noise of paleoclimate proxy data and this goes along with the inherent problem of there simply not being enough time elapsed for us to observe them as they occur.

While any possible oscillations that may occur at these larger time scales will also "center around a neutral state" the fact that we've not been able to detect them (if they exist) means that deciding what the "neutral state" temperature should be is dependent on knowing the magnitude of the variation and our current position (2013) relative to it.


Volcanic aerosols have a cooling effect on the planet by having a significant but short term effect on temps. Their effects are impressively well understood - even in the 90's Hansen correctly modelled and projected golbal temps in response to the Mt pinatubo eruption.... but it's impossible for a climate model to predict things like eruptions and oceanic oscillations. Once again - volcanic eruptions do NOT have long term effects on temp trends.

Understood. And I didn't dispute this. The IPPCC reports also include extensive documentation on radiative forcing due to orbital variations (Milankovich cycles) but I didn't mention them either because they had no significant effect on temperature variation in the past century.

Of course there are other natural forcings which have effected climate over millenia - variations in TSI (solar), orbital oscillations, and GHG levels INCLUDING naturally occurring CO2. To say that it can't possibly be CO2 because of Al Gore and some derpy conspiracy theory is just daft. Climate scientists are trying to quantify exacly how much of an effect each of these different components have on the bigger picture. Obviously when you have a MASSIVE uptick in one of these components you're quite likely to see some kind of physical effect.... and we are.

I didn't mention Al Gore - or any derpy conspiracy theories. I also did not dispute the fact that the increased CO2 due to the burning of fossil fuels is a driver of global warming. I concede that it may even be the dominant driver. The only thing I've addressed are statements contained in the IPCC reports that seem to exaggerate the effects of CO2, and their premature assumption that anthropogenic effects are the ONLY significant natural factors.

Correct but this is not ignored by the IPCC. Climate science is based on analasys of prehistoric proxy data. These things are not dismissed as irrelevant or ignored. They are quantified and put into context.

There is a limit to the reliability of proxy data and the uses that it can be put to. One of my criticisms of the IPCC reports is that it makes assumptions that exceed those limits. For example: Diverse sources of proxy data of very different types are merged together and processed in such a way as to smooth out and obscure any significant variations on global temperature except on very large time scales. This is then compared to much more accurate data from the 20th century that includes the appearance of actual variation so that it seems to show that there has been relatively little temperature change occurring in the past two millennia and very large change occurring during the last century. The fact that the way the data was processed ensures such a result, whether it actually exists in nature or not, means that the conclusion is inherently fallacious. The further fact that the same conclusion is used as a quantitative basis for calibrating the GCMs would seem to call into doubt the usefulness of those models.


There are many charts in the AR4 and 5 quantifying different climatic influences.

webpic.jpg


This chart is the single most important piece of information contained in the report. It correctly shows the relative importance of all known influences on atmospheric warming (or cooling) in a concise and quantifiable form complete with appropriate error bars. In fact, one of my criticisms of the IPCC is that it spends so much time getting to the point of creating this useful chart only to virtually ignore the information it contains in favor of climate models that rely on dubious calibration techniques to make predictions of future warming trends. [detailed citations to be added when I finish compiling them]


They have come to a conclusion that you don't like so you assume they are wrong and are looking hard for a reason. That is bad science.

You are the one assuming things about something that you cannot know or guess - my motivation for criticizing the IPCC reports.

Perhaps it didn't occur to you that I might possibly be a committed environmentalist who decided to take the time to thoroughly study the scientific background material found in the IPCC reports (the accepted authority on Global Climate Change) with the intent of being able to counter the arguments of those who wish to ignore the seriousness of the issue and who found out that the good science contained within the report was being compromised by the introduction of a certain amount of flawed methodology for the seeming purpose of exaggerating the severity of the problem.

I consider dishonesty in the name of a higher purpose to be eventually self destructive. I believe the reputation of the entire scientific community is in danger of being severely undermined by the measured amount of virtual pseudoscience that's being injected into the IPCC reports just because the lead authors believe that the end justifies that means, and a certain amount of exaggeration and dishonesty is okay as long as it gets people scared enough to join the cause of combating anthropogenic global warming.

I greatly fear that the time will soon come when the true global warming deniers (those who refuse to believe that human activity could possibly alter the climate) will be able to say, "See, we we're right all along. The global warming crisis mongers abused their science and now we've proved their warnings were based on false information and lies."

The scientific "community" needs to collectively go through these reports themselves rather than just blindly endorsing it - as many have done, assuming that because the information making up the reports is valid, then it must be true that the conclusions of the report are equally valid - and these diverse scientists must critically judge for themselves, after careful and meticulous study of the material, how much of it to endorse.
 
And yet...

1_GCRsvsTemps.jpg


...there is nothing in the GCR trend that explains the warming trend of the latter part of the 20c. Nothing.

I don't understand why people are looking for answers here when global warming can be explained with simple physics that we can observe and measure.

modtrangreenhouseUSstandard280ppmv.jpg

This is light measured bouncing off the earth - Every gas has its own signature absorption pattern - the area is energy.
That chunk in the curve around 600 is light that is absorbed in the CO2 band and converted into heat. We can calculate pretty well how much that is going to be and observations confirm these calculations to be correct. There's really not much of a mystery here.

longwave-downward-radiation-surface-evans1.png


This guy does a great primer on CO2 and atmospheric physics if you're interested....
http://scienceofdoom.com/roadmap/co2/
 
...there is nothing in the GCR trend that explains the warming trend of the latter part of the 20c. Nothing.

I don't recall suggesting that cosmic rays had anything to do with the recent warming trend. :confused:


I don't understand why people are looking for answers here when global warming can be explained with simple physics that we can observe and measure.

Tell that to the lead authors of the IPCC reports. The "simple physics that we can observe and measure" leads to a conclusion that the Earth's atmosphere has been warming at a certain quantifiable rate because of the burning of fossil fuels. This number (or "mean" number, along with a +/- range) is given in AR4* (and presumably AR5, which I'm currently reading). Yet, as I've been saying, the lead authors of the report decided that this result - achieved through calculations of well known physical properties - is not good enough.

Particularly, they contend that should this quantifiable estimate of "Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity" (ECS) be too conservative and underestimate the effects of anthropogenic global warming, then disaster will take place when not enough people are concerned about it. This is their justification for making assumptions regarding input parameters to the GCMs that are biased toward greater effects from manmade forcings*.

This guy does a great primer on CO2 and atmospheric physics if you're interested....
http://scienceofdoom.com/roadmap/co2/[/QUOTE]

That seems a decent primer and it should be useful for those who don't already understand how variations in CO2 concentrations result in climate variations. I'm not sure why it's relevant to the discussion we're having.

*Digging for citations.
 
I don't recall suggesting that cosmic rays had anything to do with the recent warming trend. :confused:
because...
However, this ignores the possibility (or likelihood) that sunspot number may significantly affect atmospheric temperature without being related to TSI, either directly or through the mechanism for the creation of clouds via cosmic rays.

The IPCC AR5 should properly include sunspot activity as a potential driver of climate change and as a possible significant contributor to the observed global warming during the 20th century.
Maybe I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here re sunspot numbers etc.. It seem like you're saying the IPCC sould be taking into account as yet unknown forcings. :confused:

I didn't mention Al Gore - or any derpy conspiracy theories.
Sorry - my comment wasn't directed specifically at you. It's more a comment on the lack of reason that I encounter in these discussions.

There is a limit to the reliability of proxy data and the uses that it can be put to. One of my criticisms of the IPCC reports is that it makes assumptions that exceed those limits. For example: Diverse sources of proxy data of very different types are merged together and processed in such a way as to smooth out and obscure any significant variations on global temperature except on very large time scales. This is then compared to much more accurate data from the 20th century that includes the appearance of actual variation so that it seems to show that there has been relatively little temperature change occurring in the past two millennia and very large change occurring during the last century. The fact that the way the data was processed ensures such a result, whether it actually exists in nature or not, means that the conclusion is inherently fallacious.
You're implying that smoothing of data effects the results. That's a big and unsubstantiated call right there. Are you talking about Manns study for example? Or the many, MANY subsequent tudies that have independently confirmed it.
 
"Science" was created/ discovered/ add preferred euphemism here by humans. Humans are fallible. As long as humans, machines (computers and such) made and programmed by humans are the ones determining "science", it too will always be fallible. Science that was "undeniable science fact" years ago has been disproven.

Einstein theorized about the existence of "black holes". The scientific community at the time said it was impossible. We now know they exist, and even have proof. Just because many scientists (even most) believe something to be true does not make it so. Clearly the climate is changing. But, it always has, and it always will.

I consider scientists thinking they can (or even should) change the climate to be the height of arrogance. Such arrogance will only lead to more trouble. People so impressed with themselves are more of a hindrance than a help, in my opinion, of course.