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Going ampless: only for bands that play decent venues?

Easter Sunday outdoor sunrise church SR gig, was supposed to be an acoustic drum kit. Instead they brought a no-name e-kit.
OK, no prob right? Think again. ONLY ONE line to PA.
Mixing drums with the only control being EQ on 1 channel is quite the challenge.
But yeah, the TOTL Roland stuff I’ve worked with is PDG.
The first rehearsal with the V-Drums was a stereo line. Sounded good. By the next rehearsal, the drummer and the bandleader had split the outputs (fortunately, we rehearse with an M32R and DL32).

Now we’re talking!

Apologies for causing the topic swerve. Back to the regularly scheduled program ….:laugh:
 
The first rehearsal with the V-Drums was a stereo line.

The first time I put together an IEM based system with E-drums, our drummer wanted to maintain control and only send a stereo mix. I think the primary motivation was so he had less cables to run and patch. I told him it was a bad idea, but he insisted...he essentially played the 'I am the drummer "card" so it's my choice.'

First tour and everyone complained incessantly about the drums, eventually including the drummer. I did my best to help him adjust the patches, but the results remained poor. It got to the point where I told the drummer I did not want to hear any more of his whining, because it was his choice and the results were exactly as I predicted. The entire bands expressed great disappointment in the new system's performance, which of course reflected poorly on me. I promised everyone it would be better on the next tour, as I would be making a cable loom to break out the individual drum instruments so I could have control at the mixing console. This change resulted in a huge improvement.
 
The first time I put together an IEM based system with E-drums, our drummer wanted to maintain control and only send a stereo mix. I think the primary motivation was so he had less cables to run and patch. I told him it was a bad idea, but he insisted...he essentially played the 'I am the drummer "card" so it's my choice.'

First tour and everyone complained incessantly about the drums, eventually including the drummer. I did my best to help him adjust the patches, but the results remained poor. It got to the point where I told the drummer I did not want to hear any more of his whining, because it was his choice and the results were exactly as I predicted. The entire bands expressed great disappointment in the new system's performance, which of course reflected poorly on me. I promised everyone it would be better on the next tour, as I would be making a cable loom to break out the individual drum instruments so I could have control at the mixing console. This change resulted in a huge improvement.
Basically, what sounds good to a drummer’s ears, may not work in FOH.
 
Guitarist has, entirely reasonably, been thinking about avoiding having to haul a cab to gigs, going ampless and even going to IEMs.

Is that just guaranteed to go badly for a noisy originals band which will probably play opener slots for other local originals bands, often in clubs with cheap PAs? I can imagine just needing everything in FoH would irritate many a soundman when the rest of the bill has amps on stage that might not even need reinforcement. Or would less stage clutter and volume be welcome?

I know expecting PAs to be able to handle bass is another matter, but is at least guitar doable?

I would only do this if you, as others have stated, bring a split and a mixer and do all your own IEMs. My band does that from tiny clubs to 10,000 seat venues. We have it down to a science, everyone controls their own mix and the times we decide to blow it off, we spend a lot more time trying to get a workable sound with the house provided wedges (and sometimes difficulty with the house provided sound person) than we do setting up our rig and everyone swearing mightily that they will never do that again. Delay of game is never on us. And it sounds great, even through a crappy PA. But, without someone in the band who really knows how to wire a stage and create mixes, it's going to be tough. Or bring your own sound person.
 
Basically, what sounds good to a drummer’s ears, may not work in FOH.


That's a good point...but apparently it did not sound very good to him either.

Part of the problem was limitations of the sound module and user interface. Adjusting levels and tone on a mixer was way more efficient and effective than trying to make the necessary changes in the sound module. Some changes were necessary in the module as well though.

The other part is it actually does takes a certain amount of skill and talent to know how to build a good mix.
 
The first time I put together an IEM based system with E-drums, our drummer wanted to maintain control and only send a stereo mix. I think the primary motivation was so he had less cables to run and patch. I told him it was a bad idea, but he insisted...he essentially played the 'I am the drummer "card" so it's my choice.'

First tour and everyone complained incessantly about the drums, eventually including the drummer. I did my best to help him adjust the patches, but the results remained poor. It got to the point where I told the drummer I did not want to hear any more of his whining, because it was his choice and the results were exactly as I predicted. The entire bands expressed great disappointment in the new system's performance, which of course reflected poorly on me. I promised everyone it would be better on the next tour, as I would be making a cable loom to break out the individual drum instruments so I could have control at the mixing console. This change resulted in a huge improvement.

I don't know why so many people are reluctant to give up control.

I don't even like relying the blend knob on my distortion pedal because every system I hear it on sounds different. I'd be much happier with someone out front managing that for me.

Mixing an entire drum kit on one patch? F that.
 
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Thanks, very enlightening thread. I see it could be done, even at our level, and might even be a good idea. It would, however, require bringing an extra rack of gear which would not be less to haul than a guitar cab... but if the guitarist isn't the one hauling it, she'd still be happy.

And if we go towards playing with a click and tracks I think it'll make more and more sense.
 
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My ampless band has two things that make it possible:

1. A complete IEM rig that has signal splitters and is able to feed all the lines into a stage box/multicore

2. A decent PA system that is able to carry small to medium venues. If the venue provided PA is not up to the task, we use our own.

These days, we mostly play bigger places and that is not an issue any more, but when we started out, we used that PA a lot.
 
Going ampless with IEMs has been a revelation and a revolution for us. But we use our own PA as well.

If you're unsure what the PA in these venues is going to be like, you could always invest in a couple of semi-decent (and bass guitar capable) FRFR speaker an keep them in the car just in case. This way you'll have a reliable way of getting the same sound you hear in your IEMS out front without going through the PA.

I have no idea what sort of volume you require from amps, but my Headrush FRFR 112 performs similarly to my old markbass 1x12 mini-stack. Besides, if the supplied PA is only suitable for vocals, you probably don't need anymore than high power combo level backline.
 
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How big an amp does he no longer want to lug there and back?
Any, really. She doesn't want to drive into the city, and would rather hop on a train with just a guitar, briefcase-sized pedalboard, and one of those tiny Orange heads.

Problems of Europians living in Europia, heh. Wanting to minimize the haul because even if you drive to a gig you might have to hunt ten minutes for a parking spot three blocks away from the venue.
 
Guitarist has, entirely reasonably, been thinking about avoiding having to haul a cab to gigs, going ampless and even going to IEMs.

Is that just guaranteed to go badly for a noisy originals band which will probably play opener slots for other local originals bands, often in clubs with cheap PAs? I can imagine just needing everything in FoH would irritate many a soundman when the rest of the bill has amps on stage that might not even need reinforcement. Or would less stage clutter and volume be welcome?

I know expecting PAs to be able to handle bass is another matter, but is at least guitar doable?

I would get an IEM rig: splitter and mixer. That way you control your own monitor mixes and let the sound engineer take care of the FOH, and you're not at the mercy of whatever the venue may have. How you get the monitor mix to your ears is a matter of preference/budget. You can go wired for not much money, or wireless, for a more expensive option.
 
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I’m becoming more and more convinced that a modern electronic drum kit solves profoundly more problems than it creates. Starting with the fact that a natural drum kit sounds like crap in the rooms almost all of us play in. I’m surprised more groups don’t use them.

Talk to 100 drummers - and 98 of them will tell you they can't play on an electronic kit. It's maddening, I agree with you on the e-kits being able to solve SO MANY problems.
 
Any, really. She doesn't want to drive into the city, and would rather hop on a train with just a guitar, briefcase-sized pedalboard, and one of those tiny Orange heads.

Problems of Europians living in Europia, heh. Wanting to minimize the haul because even if you drive to a gig you might have to hunt ten minutes for a parking spot three blocks away from the venue.

Can she leave a cab in the city that someone else can haul for her?

I mean, someone is going to need to carry the IEM rack, and as mentioned, if you don't use your own mics you're going to get very inconsistent results for your IEM mixes, so now your up having to carry another box for mics and cables.

When I started building an IEM system, I didn't fully appreciate how much it would actually cost to finish it.
 
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IEMs have a learning curve - if you show up at a gig, and expect to go ampless/in ears without any rehearsal time using the concept, you're going to come away bitter, thinking the concept sucks. The concept doesn't suck, you just haven't put in the time and effort to figure it out. I worked for Shure for my entire career, and when we started working on in ears, the first thing we did as put together an ad hoc band, and try out the concept - the earbuds available at that time didn't work well at all for bass, and I, (the bassist in this band) was the first person to pull out my earbuds. The concept didn't suck, but the gear at that time did, and none of us had any experience using in ears. After we made some decent earbuds, I've been happily playing with in ears on gigs for over 30 years. I used to do a small coffee-house vibe gig (with a harp, if the helps your picture) where I used an amp, but that gig is no longer in my rotation, and now, all my gigs are ampless.

The beauty of the concept is, if you put in the time to learn how to use IEM's, you can get a much cleaner mix to your ears, and you can transport that mix anywhere. The band can be in their happy place wherever they go. It also greatly cleans up the FOH mix - what's coming off the stage is usually not very good sounding with wedges and amps, and the poor FOH person has to try to make a mix with that in the mix. With in ears, the stage is quiet enough that the sound person can make a mix from scratch - it's more like mixing an album than mixing live. Ultimately, it's better sound for everyone involved, but you gotta put in the time to learn how to use it.

I play places from a little 400 seater (probably 700 fire code) up to a 7500 seater. IEM's help the audience the most in the little places - it tames the sound coming off the stage. IEM's help the performers the most in the big places - some of the stages I play on, we spread people out enough that it would never work well with wedges - all the long delays make a big stage hard to play on at times, and the reflections off the back wall in a big indoor space can be jarring, but with in ears, you block that; you get to be in your protected bubble of familiarity.

I don't currently play anywhere there is an electronic kit, but I have in the past - the kits are still a ways from being friendly to the drummer, but they do solve a big problem in small spaces - a good drummer may not be happy, but a good drummer can usually deal with them. The smaller places I play, the drummer is in a box; the bigger places, there are shields - sometimes only minimal shields (the little circular plexiglass cymbal shields are enough is some places to make things work well).

I live in a townhouse, where I practice in headphones - I hear everything very clearly. My gigs are all on in ears - I literally only hear my bass through speakers on very rare occasions - workshops and things where I play through an amp. There is, when you get on a stage that moves well, and have a FOH person that loves low end, a really powerful feeling having clear, precise audio in your ears, and shaking in your feet from your lower notes. It's not the same experience as blasting your ears on a loud stage, but I wouldn't trade for that at this point.

P.S. All of the venues I play at (even the smallest ones) have PA's that are very capable of handling a bass guitar - there is no bass amp cabinet available that will do the fundamentals of a 5 string justice like a really good PA.
 
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Guitarist has, entirely reasonably, been thinking about avoiding having to haul a cab to gigs, going ampless and even going to IEMs.

Is that just guaranteed to go badly for a noisy originals band which will probably play opener slots for other local originals bands, often in clubs with cheap PAs? I can imagine just needing everything in FoH would irritate many a soundman when the rest of the bill has amps on stage that might not even need reinforcement. Or would less stage clutter and volume be welcome?

I know expecting PAs to be able to handle bass is another matter, but is at least guitar doable?

I think you have to evaluate it on a gig-by-gig basis.

I sub with an artist who carries her own wireless IEM rack, and she goes ampless with an Quad Cortex. I also go ampless on bass when the PA is capable, but there are times at a smaller venue when the PA might only be suitable for vocals and I need to use an amp.

There have been zero problems in regard to FOH integration at her gigs. She has an XLR splitter in the rack and gives the "tails" to the engineer(s) to be plugged into the stage snake. I've never heard them complain or question anything thus far.

There are some exceptions, like doing gigs w/ multiple artists (festivals,etc). In those cases it's usually easier to use the monitor wedges provided, as there are often bands playing before and after us. Minimizing setup/teardown times can be crucial in those cases.
 
IMHO the biggest problem with going ampless is how the monitoring affects the vocalists. If there is only one monitor mix available noone will be 100% happy with what they are hearing.

My own limited ampless experiences have been only with monitor speakers, not IEMs. With multiple mixes and a good soundperson it was fine.
 
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Talk to 100 drummers - and 98 of them will tell you they can't play on an electronic kit.

Talk to 100 bassists - and 100 of them will tell you they can't play on a synthesizer. It's maddening, synthesizers solve SO MANY problems.

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