Going to be China Free in 2008

[jade]

Good luck with your boycott. It won't work. It can't work. But good luck with it anyway.

I never said it will be a boycott but I won't get into that. I'm interested to know why do you think it won't work? and why it can't work?

Yes, the majority of the people will probably buy where it is cheaper which is why capitalism works so well. The idea is challenging the idea, to put more of a thought in than looking at the sticker price. Some people may choice to buy from a more socially conscious company or to buy locally even if it costs more.

It's the fast rate of growth of China's economy is causing an increase of pollution. There is a coal plant built every week, it's one of the more polluting ways to get electricity but it's so cheap to put it and coal is readily available. It's just the way it is. I'm not saying we should remain to have our standard a living while they should remain in poverty, maybe the rest of the world should pay them to pollute less. It's just an idea and something else to think about.

I'm still learning about all this so I'm opening to ideas from the other side, I admit most of my sources have been bias. So, I'm looking for some information from the other side. Are their any books you could recommend? I'm always looking for new reading material.

Feel free to PM me, so we don't completely derail the thread.

 

[hbarcat]

[*]

I must have misunderstood; I thought you were advocating a boycott against China, which is what I was suggesting wouldn't work. Kind of hard to keep every country in the world from doing business with a country with a billion well educated workers eager to make products in modern, hi-tech facilities for a lot less money than anywhere else that's comparable in quality.

This book is excellent and well recommended. It explains why the world's economy is the way it is without being preachy or political, and deals extensively with trade between countries and China in particular.

The Undercover Economist - Tim Harford

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Undercover_Economist

 

[Bass Viking]

So..? What are these "fantastic reasons?" Unless you are holding a grudge against Israel that is

I can't speak for Toasted although I suspect he may not want to elaborate for fear of being labeled an anti-semite.

As far as "holding a grudge" against Israel: Americans (including Jews) who oppose Israeli actions may be further angered that their tax dollars are being used to support those actions.

 

[slugworth]

I must have misunderstood; I thought you were advocating a boycott against China, which is what I was suggesting wouldn't work. Kind of hard to keep every country in the world from doing business with a country with a billion well educated workers eager to make products in modern, hi-tech facilities for a lot less money than anywhere else that's comparable in quality.

This book is excellent and well recommended. It explains why the world's economy is the way it is without being preachy or political, and deals extensively with trade between countries and China in particular.

The Undercover Economist - Tim Harford

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Undercover_Economist

Modern, hi-tech facilities? Those would be the exception, rather than the rule. Comparable in quality? For real? Highly educated workers? A small minority. So here's the question.
Why would any economy with such a cheap, abundant commodity such as the labor force that exists in China, focus capital investment on labor saving technology?

If you want a good read, pick up "The Unbound Prometheus"
by David Landes. Yes, it was written after 1950, The book deals primarily with the Industrial Revolution in Europe post 1750, but there are several parallels that can be applied to todays China. Where the parallels stop, however, and what I find most alarming about China, is it's communist dictatorship and agressive military stance.

 

[slugworth]

The city of Geneva has been boycotting American made products since the start of military operations in Iraq.

I doubt Switzerland was boycotting Iraqi products when Saddam and his goons were terrorizing that nation. Maybe we should re-name Switzerland's national product "Hypocrisy Cheese"

 

[slugworth]

Trouble. And everybody buys it.

Trouble? Do tell....

I saw strange posts earlier in this thread.
Let's say you moved most of the World's top polluting industries to developping countries so you don't have them on your soil anymore and can pay workers crap.
How fair is it to complain about pollution afterwards ?

It's kinda like second hand smoke...Feel free to pollute your own lungs, not mine..

 

[hbarcat]

Modern, hi-tech facilities? Those would be the exception, rather than the rule. Comparable in quality? For real? Highly educated workers? A small minority.

Visit a typical textile factory in the U.S. and you'll see there's not much high tech about it. There's a cutting area with workers using electric hand tools and there's a sewing area with workers using sewing machines. Same thing in China.

Look at a typical hardware or electronics assembly factory in the U.S. and you'll see semi-skilled workers operating industrial assembly machines. Same thing in China.

A typical plastic product manufacturing plant in the U.S. will have skilled workers setting up, operating and maintaining computer controlled injection molding machines and the related systems as well as the systems for any finishing and assembling and the semi-skilled and unskilled workers needed for those operations. Same as in China.

The only difference is U.S. workers need to make 5-10 times as much money as the Chinese workers in order to live in their respective countries. But with so much money going into China from the rest of the world, that number is rapidly getting smaller.

 

[iamlowsound]

I see alot of auto parts coming out of Canada and Italy, as well as China.

Fwiw the Chinese stuff is junk. Send it all back.

I can speak for the Canada part of that. In the town that I live in (6000 people) there are two auto parts companies. One does work for toyota and the other for Honda.

lowsound

 

[slugworth]

Visit a typical textile factory in the U.S. and you'll see there's not much high tech about it. There's a cutting area with workers using electric hand tools and there's a sewing area with workers using sewing machines. Same thing in China.

Look at a typical hardware or electronics assembly factory in the U.S. and you'll see semi-skilled workers operating industrial assembly machines. Same thing in China.

A typical plastic product manufacturing plant in the U.S. will have skilled workers setting up, operating and maintaining computer controlled injection molding machines and the related systems as well as the systems for any finishing and assembling and the semi-skilled and unskilled workers needed for those operations. Same as in China.

The only difference is U.S. workers need to make 5-10 times as much money as the Chinese workers in order to live in their respective countries. But with so much money going into China from the rest of the world, that number is rapidly getting smaller.

There's another big difference. To produce one typical unit of output in China requires nearly six times the input as a comparable unit of output in the US or the UK.

 

[slugworth]

A friend of mine just finished up his MBA program at Pepperdine and had to spend a few weeks in the greater Beijing area as part of that program. He said the place looked like a scene out of Soylent Green.

 

[Vandelay]

A friend of mine just finished up his MBA program at Pepperdine and had to spend a few weeks in the greater Beijing area as part of that program. He said the place looked like a scene out of Soylent Green.

Yep, the New York Times just did a multi-day feature on China's pollution problems. The photos are pretty sad.

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Here's a recent photo from Tiannenmen Square:

Beijing is supposedly trying to get things improved by the time they host this summer's Olympics, but I expect it'll be more like sweeping the mess under the rug instead of making real change.

 

[bmc]

I doubt Switzerland was boycotting Iraqi products when Saddam and his goons were terrorizing that nation. Maybe we should re-name Switzerland's national product "Hypocrisy Cheese"

Why do you doubt that?

 

[Spoiled Grape]

I doubt Switzerland was boycotting Iraqi products when Saddam and his goons were terrorizing that nation. Maybe we should re-name Switzerland's national product "Hypocrisy Cheese"

I think that's a tad unfair considering the average output of products coming from Iraq compared to America.

 

[ChiliPepper]

The city of Geneva has been boycotting American made products since the start of military operations in Iraq.

what a bunch of pathetic hyprocrites .

I doubt they are boycotting russian or chinese or iranian products.

 

[bmc]

what a bunch of pathetic hyprocrites .

I doubt they are boycotting russian or chinese or iranian products.

You doubt because.....

 

[slugworth]

Why do you doubt that?

Firstly, because if it indeed was the case, I have not read nor heard about it, and some Americans, contrary to popular world opinion, do monitor the foreign press. Of course, I could be wrong...

Secondly, earlier last year, I spent a few weeks in Europe. I encountered people from all over Europe. Germans, English, Belgians, Spaniards, and Portuguese. With the exception of the Portuguese and the Spanish Galegos, America-bashing has become somewhat of a national pastime in many European countries, and I, for one am growing extraordinarily weary of it.

I think after Bush exits the White House, the USA should just not pick up the phone for a while..

 

[bmc]

Hi Slug

Geneva's a small town. I'm not even sure it was a national story in the country. It's more symbolic than anything. The real impact? Negligible.

As for the derogatory attitude towards Americans, it's a whole lot better now than it was 3-4 years ago. I don't think it's a big issue any more.

 

[slugworth]

Hi Slug

Geneva's a small town. I'm not even sure it was a national story in the country. It's more symbolic than anything. The real impact? Negligible.

As for the derogatory attitude towards Americans, it's a whole lot better now than it was 3-4 years ago. I don't think it's a big issue any more.

I don't know about that. I was in Europe in 2003, and the Anti-American sentiment wasn't nearly what it was during my most recent visit. Just pop on Youtube and type in "I HATE AMERICA" Look at all the videos that come up, most of which have recently been posted by Europeans. Stupid Americans, Fat Americans, Ignorant Americans, on and on and on....But I appreciate your optimism.

 

[richnota]

Did anybody mention a year without made in china is a popular book.

A journalist decided to spend a year without chinese goods to understand the impact on consumer-life the Chinese are having.

http://www.amazon.com/Year-Without-Made-China-Adventure/dp/0470116137

The whole global economy is getting more ambiguous....when Ford makes a car in Mexico is it still an "American" car? When Mercedes makes a car in Tennessee, is it German? Same goes for Honda and Kia.

Im more concerned that China seems overun by corruption and complete disregard for environment. The US may be playing games with Kyoto, but our cities arent cloaked with toxic fog. I've been there and I was pretty disturbed by the whole scene.

 

[slugworth]

Did anybody mention a year without made in china is a popular book.

A journalist decided to spend a year without chinese goods to understand the impact on consumer-life the Chinese are having.

http://www.amazon.com/Year-Without-Made-China-Adventure/dp/0470116137

The whole global economy is getting more ambiguous....when Ford makes a car in Mexico is it still an "American" car? When Mercedes makes a car in Tennessee, is it German? Same goes for Honda and Kia.

Im more concerned that China seems overun by corruption and complete disregard for environment. The US may be playing games with Kyoto, but our cities arent cloaked with toxic fog. I've been there and I was pretty disturbed by the whole scene.

Not to mention China's dismal human rights record and aggressive military posturing.