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Double Bass GR Bass AT110 / Small Cab Shootout

Thank's for the answer, but my question was not in terms of loudness but in terms of sound.
Does a 4 or 8 ohm cab will sound equal.
This is after a discussion with the people from Barefaced to whom I asked why don’t they make their cab in 4 ohms. From their answer witch I cannot remember exactly, defending the 8 ohm, I had the feeling that may be there was a technical reason for making them in 8 and not in 4. This is why I ask the question.
If I have the choice to buy one, and prefer a 4 ohm to get all the juice of a TC Bam 200, will it sound different from the same cab in 8 ohms ?
Will I lose something, will I gain something ?
 
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I lived in NYC for six years early in the class D era. I remember having a friend help me move a 70 pound Eden 2x10 on the R train before small amps became common. I had a Wizzy 10 and GK MB200 head, the GK MB150S and various other small amps, they were still too big for me to move about with my bass in the subway and/or just awful sounding. The only thing that actually worked to travel comfortably with was the 2x5, 100 watt Phil Jones Bass Cub. I liked it, it was loud enough for jazz/bluegrass volumes, band mates liked it, although it couldn’t complete with a rock drummer. With my Fdeck HPF and cables the rig was well sub of 15lbs in its handy carrying bag. I also was using gut strings at the time and got a lot of acoustic pop out of the bass, perhaps at the expense of clarity and comfortable playing! If I was playing a bigger venue I tended to use their backline. Never the less, it worked pretty damn well for the vast majority of my gigs.

That being said, the prices of these things have gone up a lot and there is a ton of new stuff out there. I bet a BAM200 with the GR-110 at 4ohms absolutely blows the Cub away at the same weight. If I ever move back maybe I’ll grab one. NYC always needs another bassist, right? :p
 
…….. The only thing that actually worked to travel comfortably with was the 2x5, 100 watt Phil Jones Bass Cub. I liked it, it was loud enough for jazz/bluegrass volumes, band mates liked it, although it couldn’t complete with a rock drummer. With my Fdeck HPF and cables the rig was well sub of 15lbs in its handy carrying bag. …………… Never the less, it worked pretty damn well for the vast majority of my gigs.

That being said, the prices of these things have gone up a lot and there is a ton of new stuff out there. I bet a BAM200 with the GR-110 at 4ohms absolutely blows the Cub away at the same weight. If I ever move back maybe I’ll grab one. NYC always needs another bassist, right? :p

Having never had the “pleasure” of playing in NYC I can only imagine what you folks go through on a regular basis. I started with a Walter Woods MI-100-8 which was plenty light but in the early 70’s no 1x15 cabinets existed that were under 40 lbs. I had two GK 200MB’s which sounded better than the later MB150’s but nothing close to the Woods, by comparison. Now that web concerts are happening, I’ve noticed that Smalls has an Aguilar Tone Hammer and AG 110 as their house amp, which makes the most sense. I have a Powered MAS 1/8 and a Grace Pre that work great for St.Louis but if I were in New York it would be a BAM and something like the GR.
 
[QUOTE="I bet a BAM200 with the GR-110 at 4ohms absolutely blows the Cub away at the same weight. If I ever move back maybe I’ll grab one. NYC always needs another bassist, right? :p[/QUOTE]

I have always a Wizzy 10 4 ohms at home, I had the GK MB 150, also the Phil Jones BassCub 100 but for me there is a lack of bass when playing with a drummer.
Paris also always needs another bassist, right?:)
 
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When I lived in NYC late 70s I dragged a Polytone MiniBrute around on a luggage cart. Not too bad, but I was
young. Lately my goal has been to put a small light amp in a backpack, but I'm finding that even 15 pounds
is too much! The Double four is less than 9lbs. The GR by itself may work for me. Now, what to do with my Doubler?
 
Amp 200 watts at 4 Ohms
4 Ohms cab 200 watts is full power,
8 Ohms cab 200 watts is half power.
Two 8 Ohms cabs each 200 watts are both half power.

The sound difference results from the 4 Ohms cab driven harder than the 8 Ohms cab. It is also louder.
Two 8 Ohms cabs together are as loud as one 4 Ohms cab, but each driven half as much as the 4 Ohms cab.
If the output of the amp is 4 Ohms minimum, only one cab at 4 Ohns can be used, but two 8 Ohm cabs (with 100 watts each for getting fully driven) can be connected. If only one is connected, it can be 100 watts too to get fully driven, but is quieter than the 200 watts 4 Ohms cab.

Long and technical...sorry :oops:.

Synopsis if you don't care to read:
Running a single 4 ohm gives a very small increase in SPL that may or may not be noticeable. Gaining an extra 1 to 2dB at the expense of losing the ability to run two 8 ohm cabs should be considered carefully.

When drivers come in 4 ohms and 8 ohms, often the 4 ohm driver will have a slightly lower Sensitivy rating. This may be somewhat concealed because sensitivity may be speced as dB at 2.89V rather than dB at 1W. The misdirection here is 2.89V at 4 ohms is 2W and 2.89V at 8 ohms is 1W. To convert a 4 ohm voltage based sensitivity rating to 1W, subtract 3dB. No change is required for the 2.89V at 8 ohm rating...1W=1W

For example: consider a 4 ohm drier that is rated 99dB at 2.89V and an 8 ohm driver that is rated 97dB at 2.89V. To really compare you need to convert to a 1W sensitivity rating. The 4 ohm cab goes to 96dB 1W/1m and 8 ohm cab stays at 97dB 1W/1m.

Next you consider the amount of power that is available. The 4 ohm cab make 96dB with 1W and the 8 ohm cab makes 97dB with 1W.

Count how many time the amp can double the power and multiply by 3. This gives us the decibel change from 1W to however much power the amp makes. Or however much power the cab can take.

For 200W at 4 ohms we get.
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256 = 7 doubling of power and a little more (3x7=21dB)
For 100W at 8 ohms we get:
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128 = 6 doublings and a little more (3x6=18dB)​

If you want to also take into account the "little more," estimate and add a number between 1 and 3dB, based on how close the amp's power is to the next doubling. 200W is more than half way to the next doubling of power (256W), so I suggest adding 2dB. (21+2=23dB) This is the approximate decibel change you get when the power goes from 1W to 200W

100W is also more than half way to the next doubling of power (128W). (18+2=20). This is the approximate decibel change you get when the power goes from 1W to 100W

Finally, add the decibel change to the sensitivity ratings:

For 200W with a 96dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. (96+23=119dB). This is the max SPL the single 4 ohm cab makes with 200W

For 100W with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. (97+20=117dB). This is the max SPL the single 8 ohm cab makes with 100W

The difference will be even less with many amps, because they do not fully double power (200%) when you go from 8 to 4 ohms. Often the difference is more like 160%. So with an amp that makes 200W at 4 ohms, the 8 ohm power would something like 128W, instead of 100W.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256 (7x3=21dB change)
Add to the 97dB sensitivity rating (97+21=118dB) This is the max SPL 128W makes with the 8 ohm cab. Only 1dB less than you get with 200W at 4 ohms.

Keep in mind we normally say you need a 3dB change to really hear it. So gaining an extra 1 to 2dB at the expense of losing the ability to run an extra cab should be considered carefully...you really don't typically gain much. Also, pushing the 4 ohm driver harder will produce more wear and tear on both the amp and driver. This most important if you are pushing them to their limits.

When you add a matching cab you get something called mutual coupling. Mutual coupling bumps the SPL at lower frequencies by +6dB over what one of the two cabs is producing. So let's see what happens with an amp that makes 200W at 4 ohms and 100W at 8 ohms.

With one 8 ohm cab it will receive 100W. We already determined the max SPL will be 117dB

With two 8 ohm cabs, the 200W at 4 ohms will be split evenly between the matching cabs. So, each cab will receive 100W, and each cab will have a max SPL of 117dB. Both cabs together will produce mutual coupling which gives them +6dB SPL. 117+6=123dB

Summary:
--one 4 ohm cab at 200W = 119dB and,
--two 8 ohm cabs at 200W = 123db (a 4dB difference).

Also
--one 8 ohm cab at 100W = 117dB and,
--one 8 ohm cab at 128W= 118dB
Finally (see the following few paragraphs)
--two 8 ohm cabs at 100W = 120dB
Although not completely relevant to this thread, one final fact you need to know: When the amp makes the same power regardless impedance, adding a matching cab gives you +3dB from mutual coupling.

With a tube amp, the power is typically the same as long as the amp sees the expected impedance. For example, an amp might make 100W at both 4 and 8 ohms. Since the power is split between the two cabs, each cab gets 50W. The decibel difference between 100W and 50W is 3dB. So each cab receiving 50W makes 3dB less than a single cab that gets the entire 100W. But then you add +6dB for mutual coupling (-3+6=+3dB)

Let's assume 8 ohms cabs that make 117dB at 100W and 114dB at 50W. Mutual couple from two cabs making 114dB. (114+6=120dB). So we see that when you double cabs, but hold power constant mutual coupling gives you +3dB. Essentially the sensitivity rating of two cabs is 3dB higher than one cab. To get the entire +6dB the amp must double the total output power when the second cab is added.

Mutual coupling only works for frequencies where driver spacing is within approximately 1/4 wavelength. This is why two cabs will sound more bass heavy than one.

Also when you lower the impedance driven by the amp, it has an impact on the damping factor. Definition of Damping Factor: ratio of the impedance of the speaker load to the output impedance of the amp. In some instances, the resultant change in damping can have an impact on the sound/feel.

:beaver:
 
Long and technical...sorry :oops:.
Keep in mind we normally say you need a 3dB change to really hear it. So gaining an extra 1 to 2dB at the expense of losing the ability to run an extra cab should be considered carefully...you really don't typically gain much.
:beaver:

Well, thank’s for your long and interesting explanation that I red, probably without understanding all of it,
But I keep in mind that I once played my Takamine TB10 directly into my Focus SA coupled with a Wizzy 4 ohm for an outdoor concert, so no preamp, and I had enough sound without pushing fully the amp, and having some spare headroom on my hand. I think the Wizzy 4 was for something
I think there is a thread here where someone speak about using a Simone amp without a preamp.
Even if you win only 1 db with one cab at 4 ohms , and that it's only with 3 db that you can hear a significant difference, my next cab will be a 4 ohm if possible, also because one of my main problems is traveling light, 2 cab is not my solution.
Thank’s Wasnex for you explanation.
 
Well, thank’s for your long and interesting explanation that I red, probably without understanding all of it,
But I keep in mind that I once played my Takamine TB10 directly into my Focus SA coupled with a Wizzy 4 ohm for an outdoor concert, so no preamp, and I had enough sound without pushing fully the amp, and having some spare headroom on my hand. I think the Wizzy 4 was for something
I think there is a thread here where someone speak about using a Simone amp without a preamp.
Even if you win only 1 db with one cab at 4 ohms , and that it's only with 3 db that you can hear a significant difference, my next cab will be a 4 ohm if possible, also because one of my main problems is traveling light, 2 cab is not my solution.
Thank’s Wasnex for you explanation.

The Wizzys are pretty efficient. The 12 is rated for 126dB at 200W. The 10 does 126 with 250W.
 
Long and technical...sorry :oops:.

Synopsis if you don't care to read:
Running a single 4 ohm gives a very small increase in SPL that may or may not be noticeable. Gaining an extra 1 to 2dB at the expense of losing the ability to run two 8 ohm cabs should be considered carefully.

When drivers come in 4 ohms and 8 ohms, often the 4 ohm driver will have a slightly lower Sensitivy rating. This may be somewhat concealed because sensitivity may be speced as dB at 2.89V rather than dB at 1W. The misdirection here is 2.89V at 4 ohms is 2W and 2.89V at 8 ohms is 1W. To convert a 4 ohm voltage based sensitivity rating to 1W, subtract 3dB. No change is required for the 2.89V at 8 ohm rating...1W=1W

For example: consider a 4 ohm drier that is rated 99dB at 2.89V and an 8 ohm driver that is rated 97dB at 2.89V. To really compare you need to convert to a 1W sensitivity rating. The 4 ohm cab goes to 96dB 1W/1m and 8 ohm cab stays at 97dB 1W/1m.

Next you consider the amount of power that is available. The 4 ohm cab make 96dB with 1W and the 8 ohm cab makes 97dB with 1W.

Count how many time the amp can double the power and multiply by 3. This gives us the decibel change from 1W to however much power the amp makes. Or however much power the cab can take.

For 200W at 4 ohms we get.
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256 = 7 doubling of power and a little more (3x7=21dB)
For 100W at 8 ohms we get:
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128 = 6 doublings and a little more (3x6=18dB)​

If you want to also take into account the "little more," estimate and add a number between 1 and 3dB, based on how close the amp's power is to the next doubling. 200W is more than half way to the next doubling of power (256W), so I suggest adding 2dB. (21+2=23dB) This is the approximate decibel change you get when the power goes from 1W to 200W

100W is also more than half way to the next doubling of power (128W). (18+2=20). This is the approximate decibel change you get when the power goes from 1W to 100W

Finally, add the decibel change to the sensitivity ratings:

For 200W with a 96dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. (96+23=119dB). This is the max SPL the single 4 ohm cab makes with 200W

For 100W with a 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. (97+20=117dB). This is the max SPL the single 8 ohm cab makes with 100W

The difference will be even less with many amps, because they do not fully double power (200%) when you go from 8 to 4 ohms. Often the difference is more like 160%. So with an amp that makes 200W at 4 ohms, the 8 ohm power would something like 128W, instead of 100W.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256 (7x3=21dB change)
Add to the 97dB sensitivity rating (97+21=118dB) This is the max SPL 128W makes with the 8 ohm cab. Only 1dB less than you get with 200W at 4 ohms.

Keep in mind we normally say you need a 3dB change to really hear it. So gaining an extra 1 to 2dB at the expense of losing the ability to run an extra cab should be considered carefully...you really don't typically gain much. Also, pushing the 4 ohm driver harder will produce more wear and tear on both the amp and driver. This most important if you are pushing them to their limits.

When you add a matching cab you get something called mutual coupling. Mutual coupling bumps the SPL at lower frequencies by +6dB over what one of the two cabs is producing. So let's see what happens with an amp that makes 200W at 4 ohms and 100W at 8 ohms.

With one 8 ohm cab it will receive 100W. We already determined the max SPL will be 117dB

With two 8 ohm cabs, the 200W at 4 ohms will be split evenly between the matching cabs. So, each cab will receive 100W, and each cab will have a max SPL of 117dB. Both cabs together will produce mutual coupling which gives them +6dB SPL. 117+6=123dB

Summary:
--one 4 ohm cab at 200W = 119dB and,
--two 8 ohm cabs at 200W = 123db (a 4dB difference).

Also
--one 8 ohm cab at 100W = 117dB and,
--one 8 ohm cab at 128W= 118dB
Finally (see the following few paragraphs)
--two 8 ohm cabs at 100W = 120dB
Although not completely relevant to this thread, one final fact you need to know: When the amp makes the same power regardless impedance, adding a matching cab gives you +3dB from mutual coupling.

With a tube amp, the power is typically the same as long as the amp sees the expected impedance. For example, an amp might make 100W at both 4 and 8 ohms. Since the power is split between the two cabs, each cab gets 50W. The decibel difference between 100W and 50W is 3dB. So each cab receiving 50W makes 3dB less than a single cab that gets the entire 100W. But then you add +6dB for mutual coupling (-3+6=+3dB)

Let's assume 8 ohms cabs that make 117dB at 100W and 114dB at 50W. Mutual couple from two cabs making 114dB. (114+6=120dB). So we see that when you double cabs, but hold power constant mutual coupling gives you +3dB. Essentially the sensitivity rating of two cabs is 3dB higher than one cab. To get the entire +6dB the amp must double the total output power when the second cab is added.

Mutual coupling only works for frequencies where driver spacing is within approximately 1/4 wavelength. This is why two cabs will sound more bass heavy than one.

Also when you lower the impedance driven by the amp, it has an impact on the damping factor. Definition of Damping Factor: ratio of the impedance of the speaker load to the output impedance of the amp. In some instances, the resultant change in damping can have an impact on the sound/feel.

:beaver:


Oops! :rollno: Correction to post #37: 2.89V should be 2.83V. :banghead:
 
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