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Double Bass Grace Designs Felix

flatback

flatback

May 6, 2004
2,988
2,667
#1
So here is my question. A new blender on the market Felix by Grace Designs, costs way over twice what other similar devices do...In fact it is way up there at $1000. What could justify such a price? Would a high end mic pre make that much difference in a live setting? For example would the mic pre be perceptibly different then the mic preamp in a Headway or even in the front end of a Acoustic Image or a Summit 221 (at $600)? Is the DI or EQ different in some way as to warrant a price like that Are there components that are that much better that could go into such a box? I am curious. I think the future of URB amplification is in separate pre and power amps (I really like having the Headway which can go directly into a powered speaker or into my AI Focus bass rig and can power a mic and pickup and provide the same sound into any of these)
By way of comparison the Summit 221 has much the same high end stuff blending, Tube stage and almost half the price?
I really like the idea of a preamp on the ground with short leads from the bass and a single XLR to the amp or PA. With stomp mute, and a sophisticated EQ that has what is necessary to really dial in a good sound. I also like that it seems to have multiple impedance settings for pickups, 48v phantom power and no batteries. But the price is really daunting.
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#2
While Grace Designs products certainly have a great reputation for being of the highest quality, I think anyone would have to actually audition one of these units to hear for themselves how this design and build quality translates in performance. Let us know if you check one out. It looks very nice.
 
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#3
flatback said:
So here is my question. A new blender on the market Felix by Grace Designs, costs way over twice what other similar devices do...In fact it is way up there at $1000. What could justify such a price? Would a high end mic pre make that much difference in a live setting?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not sure anything can justify the cost of this box, I'm definitely impressed by it's full set of independent channels, but the Headway EDB-2 is so much more reasonable.

flatback said:
For example would the mic pre be perceptibly different then the mic preamp in a Headway or even in the front end of a Acoustic Image or a Summit 221 (at $600)? Is the DI or EQ different in some way as to warrant a price like that Are there components that are that much better that could go into such a box?
Click to expand...

It's really hard to say whether they are or not, until some one does a side by side comparison.


flatback said:
I think the future of URB amplification is in separate pre and power amps (I really like having the Headway which can go directly into a powered speaker or into my AI Focus bass rig and can power a mic and pickup and provide the same sound into any of these)
Click to expand...

+1 Like you, I believe, the Headway EDB-2, Acoustic Box Live, Flex, and Bass Bone OD, et. al. have moved us away from having a traditional amplifier. Breaking it into two units, is so easy accomplish now.
Having the pre amp at your fingertips, is ideal for getting a EQ that works in a particular environment successfully.

flatback said:
By way of comparison the Summit 221 has much the same high end stuff blending, Tube stage and almost half the price?
Click to expand...

flatback said:
I really like the idea of a preamp on the ground with short leads from the bass and a single XLR to the amp or PA. With stomp mute, and a sophisticated EQ that has what is necessary to really dial in a good sound. I also like that it seems to have multiple impedance settings for pickups, 48v phantom power and no batteries. But the price is really daunting.
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Click to expand...

It's also set up to stand mount the pre amp, and use optional foot switch to run between the two totally independent channels. The price is the only thing that stops me from trying one.

Ric


schertler-yellow-blender.jpg


PS I remember when the Schertler Yellow Blender hit the market. Nice box, very high end, and
very expensive. I can only recall one TB member who bought one.

Ric
 
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#4
I have a Felix on order. While I have not had a chance to use one yet (they don't start shipping until May), I'll try to answer some of your questions from my perspective but the jury's out until I actually have one in hand.

What could justify the price? Quality of components and materials, features, real-world functionality. For those who want or need what the Felix offers, there's just no competitor on the market. I seriously doubt that the sound quality of the unit's gain stages alone (similar to their M101 I guess) will be a significant improvement over other preamps in a live setting, but the sound quality achievable with the full feature set as implemented could be. Are the components better? Can't answer without having a unit to examine, but from the photos it does seem that the enclosure, switches, knobs, and other visible hardware are orders-of-magnitude better than those of my EDB-2 and other products I've used. I think that the Felix's design, features, and quality set a new standard, and I hope that the actual unit lives up to expectations.

Maybe separates are not necessarily the future, but a welcome and useful alternative in many situations. PA systems have improved significantly over the past two decades, and even small and mid-size venues have installed systems that are relatively sophisticated and capable of reproducing bass. Often I find that I don't need an amp/speaker at all, which is when the Felix should really come into its own.

-bob
 
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#5
One reason I am interested in the Felix is that I am about to take possession of the new Remic mics and in talking to Thor who invented them, they (like all good condensers) benefit from being run thru a high end mic preamp. I talked to him about micpre's with less then 48V of phantom (Headway and ....curiously my Focus seems to run 35 V) He seemed pretty clear that to really hear what best that his mics could offer would require a descent micpreamp to power it up. Although I dont have the mics yet I hove lots of other mics (of all sorts) and I have been running them thru the micpres that I have and can get my hands on, and low and behold different boxes sound different. Brief example, the Headway makes my condensers sound gooder then the Focus despite the Focus having a higher Phantom power. IT sounds different too...don't quite know why but there is more interesting detail and presence coming from the Headway...But the Headway wont work with the Remics...hence my search. Im not even sure Im gunna like the Remic....
 
#6
cacophonic said:
I have a Felix on order. While I have not had a chance to use one yet (they don't start shipping until May), I'll try to answer some of your questions from my perspective but the jury's out until I actually have one in hand.

What could justify the price? Quality of components and materials, features, real-world functionality. For those who want or need what the Felix offers, there's just no competitor on the market. I seriously doubt that the sound quality of the unit's gain stages alone (similar to their M101 I guess) will be a significant improvement over other preamps in a live setting, but the sound quality achievable with the full feature set as implemented could be. Are the components better? Can't answer without having a unit to examine, but from the photos it does seem that the enclosure, switches, knobs, and other visible hardware are orders-of-magnitude better than those of my EDB-2 and other products I've used. I think that the Felix's design, features, and quality set a new standard, and I hope that the actual unit lives up to expectations.

Maybe separates are not necessarily the future, but a welcome and useful alternative in many situations. PA systems have improved significantly over the past two decades, and even small and mid-size venues have installed systems that are relatively sophisticated and capable of reproducing bass. Often I find that I don't need an amp/speaker at all, which is when the Felix should really come into its own.

-bob
Click to expand...

Bob,
Well, you'll just have to let us know how amazing this little box is. I do a fair amount of concerts in halls where I can run a pre amp directly into the mains and monitors. When it works, it really works nicely. I see definite advantages in
having a box like the Felix, especially if you blend a upscale condenser, with your pickup. Having two totally independent channels, with their own EQ, get's you the best isolation possible between the two sound sources. It's built in the U.S. so
servicing is easier for U.S. customers. Since you will have both devices it would be lovely if you compared the two and posted your results.

Ric
 
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#7
I have already written to Grace designs, hoping for a Felix to review and compare. I too (despite the price) really like what this box has to offer...but I certainly want to hear it before buying. I can see having a MAS 26 with built in power amp and a Felix on the floor in front of me...super simple super hi quality....we'll see....
 
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#8
flatback said:
...and low and behold different boxes sound different.
Click to expand...

Aye there's the rub--ya never know until ya actually plug in, power-up, and start pulling sound out of the bass. Unfortunately, it's often necessary to actually BUY the thing before you can take it for a spin and find out if you even like it at all. Kinda like having to get married before you go on the first date. But since you live in Bolinas and I'm in SF, if you're still interested in the FELiX after mine arrives and you receive your Remic mics, maybe we can set them up on a date.

-bob
 
#11
Ric Vice said:
Bob,
Well, you'll just have to let us know how amazing this little box is. I do a fair amount of concerts in halls where I can run a pre amp directly into the mains and monitors. When it works, it really works nicely. I see definite advantages in
having a box like the Felix, especially if you blend a upscale condenser, with your pickup. Having two totally independent channels, with their own EQ, get's you the best isolation possible between the two sound sources. It's built in the U.S. so
servicing is easier for U.S. customers. Since you will have both devices it would be lovely if you compared the two and posted your results.

Ric
Click to expand...

Ric,

Well, since I have to...;)

I'll be happy to do so. But know upfront that my primary motivation for ordering the Grace unit is the fact that, unlike the Headway and almost every other preamp, both channels have full and identical tone-shaping capabilities including fully parametric midrange EQ (it's about time someone did this!), the channels can be toggled using the footswitch or mixed, and certain other features not the least of which is the fact that it sits on the floor (where I can stomp it and "accidentally" mute myself when the fingers don't translate the idea quite as I had imagined). In other words, the EDB can't be directly compared because it doesn't have the feature/functions that led me to the FELiX. One thing is certain: It won't make me play or sound like a virtuoso--I'll still be the same clumsy hack I've always been.

FWIW, several years ago, frustrated with available preamps, I designed one with the functions and features that I really wanted. Lacking the time to build it for myself and considering the limited market for a commercial venture, the project never made it out of the notebook. The Grace unit isn't exactly the full-on embodiment of my own design, but it's pretty darned close in most respects (and I'm sure the engineering is far far better). Perhaps this is why I'm eager to embrace FELiX.

-bob
 
#12
I am sure the Felix's mic preamp is stellar. I have played thru the Grace 101 and it is really top notch. I think it is the same mic pre. What is super important to find out about the Felix is what happens when you plug a pickup directly into it. Does it have a 20Mohm imp. like the Headway? because for a grand I wouldnt want to have another box in there too. If a piezo pickup sounds good with it then it will have a lot going for it (the fact that it is designed for string instruments is a big plus) and the eq (although for the life of me I still cant get it thru my thick skull what exactly are the best frequencies to have an eq for an upright bass?) on the Headway rolling off mids and low mids does a hell of a lot more then rolling off the mids on the focus, and the expanded mid eq on the felix looks great, but I gotta plug those things in to hear...Although I have been using the Shertler Stat B for the past year and it does not care about impedance...er it has its own little box which phantom powers it somehow. Last night I played a duo in a nice room with grand piano and just the schertler into the focus and MAS 46 with the mids rolled down some and it was a stellar sound, really stellar.
 
#14
Having another look at the swiss army knife that is the Felix...It seems to cover all the basses. It has enough different impedance settings split up between the inputs... up to the important 20Mohm,
plus listening to the cellist on their one video example (he just basically saws away making a big fat sound for a while..not really a good example) who is playing with a fishman and a DPA 4099 it sounds really good...into the board...
What I would want to have is the thing discreetly on the floor right in front of the bass with minimal cordage and any number of possibilities for a powered speaker behind me (from the PA to a Cab with power amp) I wonder if Mike Arnopol is any closer to making a powered cabinet.
 
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#15
The other thing I noticed about the specs for this box is that in addition to the 48 V phantom it also supports 12V phantom for the weird gear (I would be totally thrilled if it powered up my Schertler Stat B without needing the Schertler Box) it would make my ultimate wish (one box before the power amp) happen. THAT would be worth selling some gear about and getting this thing.
 
#19
flatback said:
The other thing I noticed about the specs for this box is that in addition to the 48 V phantom it also supports 12V phantom for the weird gear (I would be totally thrilled if it powered up my Schertler Stat B without needing the Schertler Box) it would make my ultimate wish (one box before the power amp) happen. THAT would be worth selling some gear about and getting this thing.
Click to expand...
Since I also use a Stat-B, I sent an inquiry to Schertler. Christian Genini, one of their techs, replied, "The maximum voltage supported by the microphone is 12V, so it should work correctly." We'll see.

FWIW, they replied to my inquiry within a few hours. I like that kind of customer support.

-bob
 
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#20
Ah I didn't see that....Excellent. That would make a difference to me. I have been blending the Schertler with a DPA4099. The truth is the Schertler sounds best thru the Headway (I have the EDB1 which wont work with it) so sometimes I have both the Stat B box and the Headway (the DPA 4099 sounds better thru the EDB1 too) velcrod to my amp...and I hate that too many cords too much to go wrong and too many gainstages. I was nearly ready to go buy a EDB2 and eliminate a box when the Felix showed up....If the Felix is rocking I'm going to sell a bunch of stuff and try and get it and a mini poweramp (ice? Minnie kind of thing) and streamline things.
 

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