I have played for a lot of years and feel like I am a decent player. In most genres I feel like I can lock in to a nice groove and really feel the groove. I have been playing with a band that has several songs that call for a country/bluegrass style 1-5 line (usually a I-IV-V progression). I play it in time, but I just am not feeling a groove there. When I bring it up to fellow band members or people who listen to us they all look at me like I'm crazy and say I sound fine, but I know a deeper groove is there and that I just am not catching it. Any advice? Does anyone else have trouble really getting a groove going with these "simple" lines?
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Groove with a simple 1-5 bassline?
- Thread starter wilberthenry
- Start date
During these songs, listen to the other players. Notice who is playing on the downbeat, and who is playing on the offbeats. How are the vocals articulating as far as phrasing before, on, or after the '1'? Just a suggestion to help you hear the groove.
[note: I've completely re-written this post, because I wasn't very articulate the first time]
Playing a simple, slow 1-5 groove IS hard. If it seems easy, then either you're already really good at it, or you're just not paying close attention.
What makes it hard? Two things: one, you have to use a much simpler vocabulary than you would use in other styles, but you still have to say something meaningful. It's kind of like talking to little kids about a really deep subject. You want to connect with them but you can't use a lot of the words that you would use when talking to adults.
Or maybe it's like painting a sunset only using three colors. How do you do that? You'd really have to be a good painter to pull that off.
The other thing that makes it hard is that your playing is really exposed. There's not a lot of activity in the drums and other instruments to mask any subtle mistakes in your playing. If any note is a little bit early or late, if there's any fret buzz or clank, it's easy to hear that.
OP, if you have gotten to the point where you realize how difficult it is to play a slow country or blues tune, then you have come a long way. You're paying attention, you're hearing those little nuances, and that's awesome.
All I can offer for advice is, listen to guys like Duck Dunn or Joe Osborne, and pay attention to the tone, the attack, and the exact length of each note and each rest. There's a lot to learn by checking out the masters. I never get tired of it.
Playing a simple, slow 1-5 groove IS hard. If it seems easy, then either you're already really good at it, or you're just not paying close attention.
What makes it hard? Two things: one, you have to use a much simpler vocabulary than you would use in other styles, but you still have to say something meaningful. It's kind of like talking to little kids about a really deep subject. You want to connect with them but you can't use a lot of the words that you would use when talking to adults.
Or maybe it's like painting a sunset only using three colors. How do you do that? You'd really have to be a good painter to pull that off.
The other thing that makes it hard is that your playing is really exposed. There's not a lot of activity in the drums and other instruments to mask any subtle mistakes in your playing. If any note is a little bit early or late, if there's any fret buzz or clank, it's easy to hear that.
OP, if you have gotten to the point where you realize how difficult it is to play a slow country or blues tune, then you have come a long way. You're paying attention, you're hearing those little nuances, and that's awesome.
All I can offer for advice is, listen to guys like Duck Dunn or Joe Osborne, and pay attention to the tone, the attack, and the exact length of each note and each rest. There's a lot to learn by checking out the masters. I never get tired of it.
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Country and root-five is what is expected. Anything more beyond the walk to the next chord, which is also expected, will get fish eyes from the guys.
Just roots groove easier, but, that is not what Country bands like you to be doing. Root-five is boring, we live for the walk to the next chord. LOL
Now New Country is more like Rock and straight 8's do fit. It's kinda up to what the guys like to hear from the bass.
Good luck.
Just roots groove easier, but, that is not what Country bands like you to be doing. Root-five is boring, we live for the walk to the next chord. LOL
Now New Country is more like Rock and straight 8's do fit. It's kinda up to what the guys like to hear from the bass.
Good luck.
In this kind of musical situation, everyone's playing is exposed, especially the drummer's. If he or she isn't rock-solid, this is where you'll notice it, since he/she can't hide behind fills and other busy stuff. Is it possible that in your case the drummer is the problem? I've got exactly this problem in one of my hobby bands: The drummer sounds great in most of our songs, but he struggles to keep a steady groove when the tune is relatively slow tempo and calls for him to play a simple part. In these cases I can never seem to quite lock in with him: I feel like I'm chasing a constantly moving target.
Have you listened to any recordings of songs during which you felt this way? That would probably be the most helpful thing to do in order to try to figure out whether the problem is you, the drummer, somebody else, or some combination thereof.
as has been stated...this type of music kind of exposes the rhythm section....this style of country bass is simple...but not easy to groove on...I play right on the beat...it's kind of unnatural to play the first and third beat only...but that's how it's done...right with the kick...the walk ups and downs help me stay interested...many country tunes use the 1-5...but also employ the root only if it fits the tune...if you're wanting to hear someone groove to that style...listen to Jr. Huskey on the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" album...
One thing to think about is where your notes end. Not too staccato, not too legato. Enough length to hear the tone and sound fat, but get out of the way so the snare can sound clearly. I think that's a big part of it.
echoing what others say but also remember 1 5 is also different than 8 5 one interval is a 5th one is a 4th. If you listen to great country bassists like Junior Huskey, Roy Huskey Jr, Dave Pomroy etc you will notice that they will use different intervals of the "1 5" depending on what the other musicians and the vocals are doing, sometimes they will double the 1 or do a walk up or down with a 3 etc. 1 3 5 triads seem easy on paper since you only have 3 notes but in one octave you have 14 combinations of those notes.
Listen to a simple country song like "forever and ever amen" and listen to all the variations the bass does.
The length that you play the notes, the attack, and the choices of notes you choose leads to the groove in the song.
the 14 combinations 1 octave
11
88
18
81
13
31
15
51
35
53
83
38
85
58
Listen to a simple country song like "forever and ever amen" and listen to all the variations the bass does.
The length that you play the notes, the attack, and the choices of notes you choose leads to the groove in the song.
the 14 combinations 1 octave
11
88
18
81
13
31
15
51
35
53
83
38
85
58
If my math is right, there are actually 4x4 = 16 possible combinations. The two you left out are 3-3 and 5-5. Did you overlook these, or did you omit them because you don't think they are useful?
Groove is about PUSH and PULL in this context - how the instruments interact - that creates groove.
eg. Played Peggy Sue at duo gig today.
Bass plays 1 & 5 on 1st & 3rd beats, asked guitarist (my brother) to play with more of a backbeat on 2nd & 4th beats. Sounded MUCH better.
He was so used to playing it solo he forgot how to play the guitar part (in a group context).
eg. Played Peggy Sue at duo gig today.
Bass plays 1 & 5 on 1st & 3rd beats, asked guitarist (my brother) to play with more of a backbeat on 2nd & 4th beats. Sounded MUCH better.
He was so used to playing it solo he forgot how to play the guitar part (in a group context).
And people that don't understand this are the ones that think playing country is boring. Trying to play every note just right, with nothing to hide behind is a challenge.
Decent groove? Just play "Sittin' On the Dock of the Bay". If done correctly, the audience will recognize it in a heartbeat. Lock in with your drummer and do the first verse sans other instrumentation. Fairly understated but effective and not quite as easy as it appears.
Riis
Riis
Thanks for the advice guys. I have tried many different combinations of notes and walk ups and that doesn't seem to be the issue. These songs call for simple lines and I would step all over the other players if I got too busy. I think focusing more on the length of notes and listening with intent to the masters will help me out. As I pointed out, no other band member sees it as an issue, but I sure do know that these songs will sound and feel better when I get deeper into the groove.
Recently learning Folsom Prison Blues (Cash) and Working Man Blues (MH) and noticed while playing along with the originals something gets off beat. I haven't figured out if it's me or the drummer yet. These are my first attempts at country and I have to say, I really like the songs!
You are absolutely correct. Let it "breathe". A very good approach.
Articulation of the notes - is the most important thing for the groove.
Also, remember, that in many cases, "groove is a completely subjective thing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groove_(music)
What's more, even playing those simple lines,
"Minute rhythmic variations by the rhythm section members such as the bass player can dramatically change the feel as a band plays a song, even for a simple singer-songwriter groove."
P.S. From my personal experience, even erudite/highly educated (classical) master-musicians don't always get that "subtle and subconsciously-subjective" concept of groove, plus
in any band "Groove" is a collective/team thing.
I don't know Working Mans Blues, but Folsom is an 11 bar blues (skip the last bar of I). Maybe that is what throws you off the beat?
Couple things to try.
Hear a quarter note walking time in your head but only play half of it. Even relaxed quarter note walking lines in country music tend to propel the time.
Play the half note line but make an effort to hear the space between your as much as the notes themselves. Doing this you'll hear what the melody and the other instruments are doing around your part and your part will become more sympathetic to them and blend better. Pay attention to the length of your notes.
Hear where the drummer is playing the time and don't play it exactly where he is. So if he's pushing and a little ahead of the beat try staying a little behind it. If he's playing relaxed and behind the beat see what playing right on it sounds like. This is not an exact science but rather part of taking the measure of the musical conversation you're having and making it breathe.
Hear a quarter note walking time in your head but only play half of it. Even relaxed quarter note walking lines in country music tend to propel the time.
Play the half note line but make an effort to hear the space between your as much as the notes themselves. Doing this you'll hear what the melody and the other instruments are doing around your part and your part will become more sympathetic to them and blend better. Pay attention to the length of your notes.
Hear where the drummer is playing the time and don't play it exactly where he is. So if he's pushing and a little ahead of the beat try staying a little behind it. If he's playing relaxed and behind the beat see what playing right on it sounds like. This is not an exact science but rather part of taking the measure of the musical conversation you're having and making it breathe.
Yes you are correct technically there are but if you are only pedalling the 5 or the 3 you aren't really outlining the changes leading to a resolution. The 5 pedal and and the 3 are very useful devices but maybe not on a "standard" 1 5 song.
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