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Guitar Players with harsh tone!

#61
Marko 1 said:
I suppose if there are no complaints there, and they get repeat gigs...

can't say too much. :)
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True.
ole Jason said:
How does it sound in the mix? People are often surprised how 'weird' isolated guitar tones are on their favorite albums.
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And I know that. Even as I was thinking how harsh the guitars sound (to me, onstage with them) I think about how the isolated guitar tones from Led Zeppelin I might sound.

pbass2 said:
Heck, you need around 30 seconds for guitar for soundcheck, then it starts getting into amateur hour.
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Absolutely. I think for one guy it's a combination of getting his hands warmed up, like you would stretch before a basketball game, and "getting his sound." The other guy doesn't typically play a lot.

Low End Scum said:
Lol fair point. One of my guitarists in a past band was always fighting the sound guy.

"Turn your amp down" and he'd go barely do it, or just touch the volume knob. If he did bother to actually turn it down, he'd turn it back up right as we started playing
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We've had that issue with both guitarists when there is a sound man. He will usually have one, or the other, of them turn down so low onstage (because they are so loud out front) that we can't hear them. It's really frustrating for them. As mentioned, if they would point their amps up toward their ears they would be able to hear and not blast anyone but themselves.

gln1955 said:
Then they aren't going to change. Maybe it does in fact sound good out front and there's not really a problem. What do people in your audiences say about your sound?
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I think most people in the audience don't say anything unless it's a positive. I've never had anyone say "man, you guys suck tonight...you sound like crap!" Maybe some of them think it but most responses are positive.

We played a festival gig recently in which a back line was provided. One of our guitarists took his own amp (of course) but the other guitarist played through the backline amp, a Mesa Boogie. It/he sounded like crap, at least to my ears. Then, after our set, the guitarist who owned the amp's band played and when he was "warming up" and "getting his sound" it sounded like crap to me, too.

So maybe it IS me.

So, back to my original question...what kind of earplugs or ear protection do you TB'ers suggest?
 
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#62
Texican said:
The tone of your reply really gave me perspective on these guitar players. Maybe they don’t realize that their tone comes across as harsh and unnecessary for the overall mix… much like your reply. Maybe these guitarists actually think they are adding or creating something meaningful and worthwhile. Or maybe they think that the sonic space belongs to them and them alone… kind of like when someone thinks a discussion forum should be reduced to only topics that they are interested in. Yes, people can be harsh and irritating without realizing it, whether they are playing guitar, or posting online.
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I’m glad you have a better perspective now. I, on the other hand, still have no idea what this has to do with band management. Carry on. Unless you have some more life lessons for complete strangers that don’t take you as seriously as you feel you deserve.
 
#63
Gluvhand said:
I’m glad you have a better perspective now. I, on the other hand, still have no idea what this has to do with band management. Carry on. Unless you have some more life lessons for complete strangers that don’t take you as seriously as you feel you deserve.
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I didn’t offer any lessons lol. I found an indirect way to point out that you were being a jerk (ironically, to a “complete stranger”… hypocrite much?), and you responded in proper and predictable form.
 
#64
51PRI said:
I think most people in the audience don't say anything unless it's a positive. I've never had anyone say "man, you guys suck tonight...you sound like crap!" Maybe some of them think it but most responses are positive.
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I was thinking more like friends, especially if they are also musicians. I always appreciate when my music buddies give me their honest feedback on how my band sounds. I do the same for them.

51PRI said:
So, back to my original question...what kind of earplugs or ear protection do you TB'ers suggest?
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Have you checked this sticky?

Hearing Loss and Ear Plugs
 
#65
This is as good a thread as any to say this bit: I ran sounds a rock club every Saturday night for 10 years and I never once told anyone to turn down.

sometimes a player would say “am I too loud?” And I’d usually end up saying “if you are asking I’m sure you are ok, just do what you do in rehearsals”.

it was a low ceiling, soft room, about 200 cap. If a guitar was loud I’d just not run much ( or any) in the PA. It was all originals so pretty much people coming to see loud bands expected as much. On another note , hard rock and metal bands usually had good guitar sounds. Go figure!
 
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#67
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My band practices at gig volume. I use both of these at the same time.
 
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#69
IMHO, the problem often has more to do with excess volume than harsh tone. If you turn that harsh tone down to an appropriate level, it often cuts through the mix without masking the bass. This can really clear up the mix and reduce mud on the lower mids.

Hearing loss with loud guitarists who refuse to use ear plugs is very real. Overly harsh tone and excess volume can result.

One thing I suggest (for you): Use some form of musicians ear plugs and put them in before the mayhem starts. Unfortunately, rock musicians often warm up by playing super loud (rocking out). A big problem with this is it causes your hearing to shift before you even start sound check. Then the hearing shift makes it more difficult to hear for the duration of the night.

I was actually able to convince people in one band to avoid cranking their amps and bashing the drums...and to their surprise they found they were able to hear better during the gig.

Another comment about ear plugs. Yes they all suck, even the expensive custom molds with Etymotic ER filters. My perception is they reduce dynamic range, roll of the highs, and have a build-up in the low mids cause by something called occlusion effect. The good thing is these effects will tend to help overly bright guitar sound a bit more mellow and natural.

IMHO the choice is between accepting degraded sound on the band stand or experiencing hearing loss that permanently degrades your hearing and causes tinnitus. I think the wise decision is to accept the necessary degradation on the band stand to preserve your hearing for the future.

Good luck!
 
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#71
Wasnex said:
IMHO the choice is between accepting degraded sound on the band stand or experiencing hearing loss that permanently degrades your hearing and causes tinnitus.
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See, I'm the opposite. I tried earplugs and the resulting lowered enjoyment wasn't worth it. I only have so long to live and it's a tradeoff... kinda like other risky things people do for fun and personal enjoyment. If I'm not enjoying playing I'm not playing. My ears will die with me but I love to play so it's a price to pay for my fun. So far the tinnitus isn't so bad. If it gets much worse I'll just stop playing. YMMV
 
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#73
ChrisB2 said:
See, I'm the opposite. I tried earplugs and the resulting lowered enjoyment wasn't worth it.
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Not sure if you saw this part of my last post
Wasnex said:
Another comment about ear plugs. Yes they all suck, even the expensive custom molds with Etymotic ER filters.
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Even as a full time pro, my time rehearsing and performing was only fraction of my day. I do agree that ear plugs degrades the enjoyment of performing music, but I didn't necessarily see my personal enjoyment as the biggest priority. I was there to do a job, and my ability to continue in the job required protecting the money makers.

Responsibly engaging in potentially hazardous activities should involve risk management. You assess the likelihood of incurring the hazard and also the potential severity of the hazard. Where possible you should implement counter measures to reduce the likelihood and severity of the hazard. Ear plugs reduce the likelihood and severity of hearing damage.

I viewed preserving my hearing as a trade off. The idea is playing music was a little less enjoyable, so that I could continue enjoying other activities. Other parts of the day that required good hearing: conversation with friends, family, and coworkers. Entertainment such as TV, movies, sports, video games, concerts. Safety during every day activities such as driving. Etc.

By accepting the limitations of ear plugs and making various changes, I was still able to enjoy performing. Yes the ear plugs degrade the experience, but you have some degree of control in regards to how you interpret and respond to this degradation. You can choose to hate it, or you can choose to make the best of it, or you can stop performing rather than use ear plugs.

They are your ears so if you want to risk degrading a wide variety of life experiences that are enhanced by good hearing, it's your choice. Just keep in mind, if you regularly expose you ears to excessive SPL for extended times, hearing loss and tinnitus is pretty much guarantied, and the higher the SPL the quicker the damage occurs.

Good Luck!
 
#74
In my experience the “hit” taken in the pleasure department is also offset by no longer experiencing temporary threshold shift halfway through a performance.

I used to wonder why the nice crisp stage sound at the start of a set got muddier as the set went on. It didn’t.
 
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#75
I used to play with a guy who had a Guild SG-type gtr and an Ampeg 100 V4 combo. How he did it defies logic ! Harsh treble -not too loud combined with a search for saturation and no master on the tube amp. Nice guy/crap musician ...
 
#76
dBChad said:
View attachment 5118568

Get them something similar to the above: a 1x12" tilt back cab. Put it next to the monitor and mic it. Typically, when they aim their speakers at their own heads, volumes tend to come down and EQ gets adjusted to something more pleasant. I'm in the "your ears aren't behind your knees" camp on this.
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^ What many guitarists like, and are used to, is this "amp in a room" tone, meaning they intentionally stand off-axis and prefer listening to the room rather than what comes directly out of the amp. It feels good to turn up a stack and be immersed in the massive volume, but it's not conductive to good live sound.
 
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